the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:It worked for the Buddha.
Without looking up the sutta to confirm, I think it gave him insight into kamma more than it did the three characteristics.
Insight into kamma would certainly entail seeing the interdependent rise and fall of conditioned experience. The question for you is what is the relationship of kamma to paticcasamuppada?
The ability to see past lives was not claimed to be a meditative attainment restricted exclusively to the Buddhasasana.
Yes, but the difference is seeing in the context of vipassana.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Post by Alex123 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I'm struggling to see much in the way of advantage. Does it give insight into dukkha, anatta or anicca? If anything, I would have thought it might reinforce the sense of self and "I" to see that "I" existed previously before being "reincarnated" here.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Seeing Dukkha that can last for many lives is one of the advantages of seeing rebirth.


Also, if there was only one life, then there would be a quick way to parinibbāna. There would be no need for hard work...
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acinteyyo
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Post by acinteyyo »

AndrewRayGorman wrote:I have been curious as to if anyone here has attained the 4th jhana state and been able to verify their past lives? The concept of rebirth is one I have yet to accept, if ever, but otherwise I have accepted most of the rest of the dhamma because I have personally found it to be true.
I don't have attained the 4th jhana nor am I able to verify own past lives. But if we're talking about "punabbhava", which I understand as "again becoming" I have verified becoming over and over again personally.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Refugee
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Refugee »

:namaste: More than two thousand years have gone by and there is still no consensus about (post-mortem) rebirth. Will there be consensus about this in our relatively short lifespan? I don't think so! Then, are we wasting our time here? Maybe not; because "the great rebirth debate" may actually be a positive thing, in that, it could point to the futility of seeking answers about rebirth based on intellectual arguments.

Some claim the Buddha taught about rebirth, while others have a different slant on this. Then, again, some claim they acquired experiential knowledge that rebirth actually happens. But, others reject this. There's so much reference to the different suttas and commentaries on both sides, but still no consensus. There's also no guarantee that everything in the suttas is exactly how the Buddha explained it. Some people simply choose to be angostic about it. And, being agnostic about rebirth may not be a problem because the driving force of the Dhamma is simply to know dukkha, its causes, its cessation, and the Way (8FP) to its cessation. Perhaps, knowledge about whether or not there is (post-mortem) rebirth is not essential to the practice of the Buddha-Dhamma. I am not too sure about this, but if it is the case, then beginners who field questions about (post-mortem) rebirth should be advised accordingly. Then, at least, they will put aside this "distraction" and continue with the practice... leaving this debate to more "experienced" practitioners. :tongue:
My practice is simply this: Avoid evil, do good, and purify the mind.
greggorious
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Rebirth

Post by greggorious »

Just a quick question. Does one HAVE to believe in re birth to be a Theravada Buddhist?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Greg,

Understanding what rebirth means probably takes precedence over whether one believes it or not.

So we know what you're considering believing/disbelieving, can you explain to us in your words what you think rebirth is?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Nibbida
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Nibbida »

retrofuturist wrote:Understanding what rebirth means probably takes precedence over whether one believes it or not.
Ooooh. Well said.
plwk
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Re: Rebirth

Post by plwk »

Thus Have I Heard: The more one practices, the less one need 'beliefs'...
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Jason
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Jason »

greggorious wrote:Just a quick question. Does one HAVE to believe in re birth to be a Theravada Buddhist?
Nope. If you're interested, though, you can read some of my thoughts about rebirth here.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Digity
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Digity »

greggorious wrote:Just a quick question. Does one HAVE to believe in re birth to be a Theravada Buddhist?
Buddhism is something that unfolds. It's a gradual process where your understanding deepens. There's no "HAVE TO" to Buddhism. The teachings are guidelines and as you begin to understand the guidelines you see why they're there. Don't blindly believe anything...it has to come to you through understanding.
rowyourboat
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Re: Rebirth

Post by rowyourboat »

There is no narrative or story you have to buy into to become a Buddhist- you just have to feel that the Buddha, dhamma and sangha can offer you a refuge, where other teachings cannot.

with metta

Matheesha
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Tex
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Tex »

One of the many great things about Buddhism is that we aren't asked to just believe. Buddhist faith (saddha) is a well-reasoned faith, not a blind leap of faith. We're encouraged to investigate and understand for ourselves, rather than take someone else's (even Buddha's) word for it.

If rebirth (or any other concept we encounter in the Dhamma) seems dubious or doesn't make sense at first glance, it's perfectly fine to put it off to the side and continue studying the parts that do resonate with us. There's nothing forcing us to accept or reject any concept immediately. And sometimes that difficult concept that we put off to the side, neither accepting nor rejecting, becomes much clearer once we understand more about the Dhamma as a whole and we can see that difficult concept in a more complete context.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
alan
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Re: Rebirth

Post by alan »

Well said, Tex!
ricketybridge
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Re: Rebirth

Post by ricketybridge »

I was wondering the same exact thing, but to put it more specifically, is it possible to become a stream-entrant (not just a general Buddhist) without believing in rebirth--or even kamma? The pre-requisites for stream-entry appear to be quite clear: the elimination of three of the ten fetters, which include doubt about the dhamma. Since rebirth and kamma are pretty darn fundamental to the dhamma, I would imagine that most buddhists would say that even if someone were otherwise identical to a stream-entrant in every way in terms of behavior and mental states (I know, you could argue that this would be impossible without believing in dhamma and kamma), just the fact that one of them doesn't believe in kamma and rebirth means that they must not be a stream-entrant. This seems, to me, akin to Christians saying you'll go to hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.

This bothers me because I (at least at this point) cannot believe in these things. I'm sorry if this seems blasphemous or disrespectful to anyone, but I'm actually surprised that Buddha believed in these concepts. I know he comes from a different time and culture, but all of his teachings, with the exception of these two things, are completely experiential and provable. He even seems to advocate a sort of scientific method, encouraging people to try the teaching, and to reject it if it doesn't work. Kamma and rebirth, however, are completely, entirely unprovable, and, as with the existence of god, why bother yourself about something that is utterly unknowable and probably made-up? (I know the arguments in favor of kamma and rebirth, so no need to trouble yourself with trying to convince me otherwise.)

I DO, however, believe in those things in a more practical or metaphorical sense: if you don't follow the dhamma, you will be miserable. I've sure experienced that myself. And I see the end of rebirth as the end of the rebirth of desires. Since this is sufficient, to me, to agree with the rest of his teachings, shouldn't it be sufficient for stream-entry?

I feel like some people will feel compelled to answer with "why are you worried about this? You're so far from stream-entry anyway, just do the practice, etc." or "why are you so resistant? Why don't you examine that, etc.", but, to me, these sorts of answers shut down questioning and exploration, and Buddha himself answered questions thoroughly (most of the time), so I would just like to humbly request answers that aren't merely dismissive.
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Ben
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Ben »

ricketybridge wrote:I was wondering the same exact thing, but to put it more specifically, is it possible to become a stream-entrant (not just a general Buddhist) without believing in rebirth--or even kamma? The pre-requisites for stream-entry appear to be quite clear: the elimination of three of the ten fetters, which include doubt about the dhamma. Since rebirth and kamma are pretty darn fundamental to the dhamma, I would imagine that most buddhists would say that even if someone were otherwise identical to a stream-entrant in every way in terms of behavior and mental states (I know, you could argue that this would be impossible without believing in dhamma and kamma), just the fact that one of them doesn't believe in kamma and rebirth means that they must not be a stream-entrant. This seems, to me, akin to Christians saying you'll go to hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
One of the defining characteristics of a sotapanna is unshakable confidence/faith/devotion in the Dhamma. Having said that, that does not equate to blind belief. The confidence comes from the foundation of experiential insight into the nature of mind and matter.
ricketybridge wrote:This bothers me because I (at least at this point) cannot believe in these things. I'm sorry if this seems blasphemous or disrespectful to anyone, but I'm actually surprised that Buddha believed in these concepts. I know he comes from a different time and culture, but all of his teachings, with the exception of these two things, are completely experiential and provable. He even seems to advocate a sort of scientific method, encouraging people to try the teaching, and to reject it if it doesn't work. Kamma and rebirth, however, are completely, entirely unprovable, and, as with the existence of god, why bother yourself about something that is utterly unknowable and probably made-up? (I know the arguments in favor of kamma and rebirth, so no need to trouble yourself with trying to convince me otherwise.)
Then put it to the side.
ricketybridge wrote:I DO, however, believe in those things in a more practical or metaphorical sense: if you don't follow the dhamma, you will be miserable. I've sure experienced that myself.
That is where a lot of people are at.
ricketybridge wrote:And I see the end of rebirth as the end of the rebirth of desires. Since this is sufficient, to me, to agree with the rest of his teachings, shouldn't it be sufficient for stream-entry?
When you become a sotapanna, you will be able to tell us!
ricketybridge wrote:I feel like some people will feel compelled to answer with "why are you worried about this? You're so far from stream-entry anyway, just do the practice, etc." or "why are you so resistant? Why don't you examine that, etc.", but, to me, these sorts of answers shut down questioning and exploration, and Buddha himself answered questions thoroughly (most of the time), so I would just like to humbly request answers that aren't merely dismissive.
Its still a valid response. It may feel like its dismissive but the fact of the matter is that some things aren't knowable at this point of time (or at this point on the path. Use the teachings to help you understand the teachigns and inspire you to practice. But it is the development of one's own insight that will lead to liberation.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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