I realize i already have a topic going for this but i wanted to discuss it in a bit more detail, i didnt feel the other other topic was a good place since i created it to get the Classical teaching
Here i would just like to discuss the possibility, with quotes from the suttas. Just to make clear im not saying the orthodox view is wrong (if it states it isnt so) and im right or anything like that i just would like to discuss it since i feel its an interesting question
First of all a response to peter
But the garden is still there underneath reguardless, its just choked with weeds which need removalCraig - Arahantship is something thats already here in the moment its just we dont see it or realize it because of the defilements
Peter - This is no different than saying "Underneath all these weeds, the garden is free of weeds."
Perhaps Arahantship was a wrong term to use, what i meant is that what is left at the end of the path, enlightenment, nibbana seems to already be there, just hidden because of ignorance and the defilements so we dont reconize itCraig -I feel this is in line with the Buddhadhamma from this quote:
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
Peter - Arahantship is not the Dhamma. Arahantship is not insight. Insight into the dhamma (the way things really are) comes from development of the dhamma (the path as taught by the Buddha) and leads to the eradication of the defilements. The state of defilements being eradicated is what is called arahantship.
So you see, it is just as if you said "Complete absence of defilements is already here; it's just we don't see it because of the defilements."
Or if we look at it from the perspective of what people do rather than what they are...
"We are completely free from suffering; it's just we don't see it because of all the suffering we keep creating."
This suggests that its already there, to see something is to reconize it which suggests its always thereIt's hard to see the unaffected,
for the truth isn't easily seen.
Craving is pierced
in one who knows;
For one who sees,
there is nothing.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
If someting is unborn, unbecome etc then it isnt created. If something isnt created it can be argued it is always there
I feel another point that argues in favour of this is
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"Then, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, I surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As I did so, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born & growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world.
By saying there are beings with much dust in their eyes it means they cant see the truth, the truth is there all a long just covered by the dust (or defilements) i feel this suggests that whatever it is at the end of the path, its already here in this moment but because of ignorance and defilements its hidden
Remove the defilements and you can see the truth that was there all a long