Unfair Criticism?

[retrofuturist]

Q: Are we not men? A: We are Devo!

Metta,
Retro.

[cooran]

Good ones Mike and Retro!

Should we have a funny hats thread for the last few posts???

Hi friends.

I don't know if it's fair. But what about discernment?

Isn't it more interesting to know what part of it is true and what is mere polemics?

(Asking the fair question sort of implies that you think it can't be entirely false critique.)

Kind regards,
thecap

thecap ... what do you mean by "discernment" ?
Do you mean:
paññā (Pali) which has been translated as "wisdom," "understanding," "discernment," "cognitive acuity," or "know-how?

or something else?

metta
Chris

[mikenz66]

[
Q: Are we not men? A: We are Devo!

Hey, I went to a Devo concert in about 1980 or 81. But it was The Clash and Ian Dury and the Blockheads who really kicked *ss.

May Joe and Ian have a good rebirth...

Metta
Mike

[kc2dpt]

What about Men Without Hats?
(Pet Shop Buys are fun to listen to on occasion. Bob Dylan is as well.)

[tiltbillings]

XTC

[Rui Sousa]

I present you the hats of the Portuguese band Blasted Mechanism:







They make me think on how far we can go on our deluded task of building an Ego, deforming our views until reality is hidden by delusion ...

Which I associate with the text quoted on the OP. The author seems to be saying that Theravada is somehow stagnated and does not evolve because there is no space for debate, but in my opinion the efforts of the Sangha for maintaining the Teaching as close as possible to its original form, by protecting it from deviations, are meritorious and praise worthy.

Not going off-topic seems to me as a good thing, there were many things the Buddha knew but did not teach because they were not conductive to the end of suffering.

[jcsuperstar]

since we're off topic, i'll have to go with psb's simply based on the fact that they had johnny marr play on some tracks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Marr

[Ngawang Drolma.]

But it was The Clash...who really kicked *ss.
Metta
Mike

[Aloka]

Sweet dreams everyone:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ9zycElysU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



.

[appicchato]

Bob Dylan has the penthouse in the Tower of Song.

[Dan74]

Greetings thecap,

Isn't it more interesting to know what part of it is true and what is mere polemics?

Once you see that someone's assumptions / priorities / beliefs are so disparative and irreconcilable with your own, you realise it is more profitable to spend one's limited time investigating other matters.

Hi Paul!

I'd be interested in hearing you (and Ben) elaborate further on what you've said.

I was somewhat shell-shocked by this book. Reading this board, I am kind of forming the impression that people here are following the Pali canon rather than Theravada as described by Ven Dhammika. Maybe that's why you are finding it irrelevant, but I am only guessing here..

Your comments would be appreciated.

_/|\_

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan,

I've only read the extract that was provided in the original post, but as I said, it was enough for me to see that the author prizes philosophy over liberation. As for me, I've got a Bachelor of Arts, majoring in philosophy, and whilst it's all very interesting, and it's all very good as a method of examining ethics and so on, it doesn't provide a path to liberation.

That liberation is what the Buddha achieved, and that is what he taught, and those teachings are recorded in the suttas.

It's a bit like how if you know that you're a vegetarian and you've got your reasons for it, and then Sam Kekovic comes on TV telling you its un-Australian not to eat lamb on Australia Day... well, you know it's just not worth listening to.... not worth stressing yourself about, because you don't need to resolve and combine every single bit of information that floods us... if it is of no value to you, it should be put down.

I hope that provided some extra detail.

Metta,
Retro.

[jcsuperstar]

Greetings Dan,

I've only read the extract that was provided in the original post, but as I said, it was enough for me to see that the author prizes philosophy over liberation. As for me, I've got a Bachelor of Arts, majoring in philosophy, and whilst it's all very interesting, and it's all very good as a method of examining ethics and so on, it doesn't provide a path to liberation.

That liberation is what the Buddha achieved, and that is what he taught, and those teachings are recorded in the suttas.

It's a bit like how if you know that you're a vegetarian and you've got your reasons for it, and then Sam Kekovic comes on TV telling you its un-Australian not to eat lamb on Australia Day... well, you know it's just not worth listening to.... not worth stressing yourself about, because you don't need to resolve and combine every single bit of information that floods us... if it is of no value to you, it should be put down.

I hope that provided some extra detail.

Metta,
Retro.

i read the whole thing, i think it's worth reading, i've seen some of the problems he lists but he gives no real solution other than scraping theravada and starting some new "yana"

are there problems with the thai and sri lankan, burmese sanghas? yes, can they be solved w/o trashing theravada? i think so. however, it's not going to be easy.

the author does very briefly mention that there are monks out there who've been upstanding and deserving of respect (he mentions lp chah i think), but he focuses more on the negitive, which is easy to do. (i.e. he mentions the aids temple, and comends its efforts, but then turns around to critisize them over wasting money on a building that was never used)

he seems to be fasinated with some of the humaniarian efforts of some mahayana groups/teachers and i think he feels bad that we dont have a lot of that in our school. my solution would be to use his position to try to start something akin to the groups (like tzu chi) that he admires...

[Dan74]

Greetings Dan,

I've only read the extract that was provided in the original post, but as I said, it was enough for me to see that the author prizes philosophy over liberation. As for me, I've got a Bachelor of Arts, majoring in philosophy, and whilst it's all very interesting, and it's all very good as a method of examining ethics and so on, it doesn't provide a path to liberation.

That liberation is what the Buddha achieved, and that is what he taught, and those teachings are recorded in the suttas.

It's a bit like how if you know that you're a vegetarian and you've got your reasons for it, and then Sam Kekovic comes on TV telling you its un-Australian not to eat lamb on Australia Day... well, you know it's just not worth listening to.... not worth stressing yourself about, because you don't need to resolve and combine every single bit of information that floods us... if it is of no value to you, it should be put down.

I hope that provided some extra detail.

Metta,
Retro.

Thanks, Retro!

I read the whole thing and I don't think that the comment "that the author prizes philosophy over liberation" applies to the entire piece. From what I've heard he is a very active monk, hands-on type of monk.

My feeling was that the author who had been a Theravada monk for some 25 years at the time of writing was deeply disenchanted with the way he saw Theravada develop and being practiced in the temples and countries where he'd lived.

Personally I felt that his heart must've been bleeding for the Buddhadhamma and it is out of that sentiment largely that he wrote what he did, rather than from a penchant for fault-finding. He has also written many non-critical dhamma texts.

But that extract too makes some interesting (if not completely valid points). Does one believe that the experiential exploration of the Buddhadhamma involves passing the stages as described in the Abhidhamma or a more creative personal adventure that results in brilliant investigations such as by Nagarjuna, Dogen, etc as mentioned?

Should the Dhamma when correctly applied bring about a vibrant and creative culture, rich in Arts, Science, Literature and Ethics? I realise that these are not the Dhamma, but do they not proceed from a sense of creativity which in turn goes with liberation (to some extent)?

But he makes many different points in the book, and I'd recommend it to any Buddhist, not just Theravada. Perhaps not at the start of the path, but certainly after a while!

_/|\_

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan/JC,

Okey doke... I'll try to read it over the next day or two.



Metta,
Retro.