Anapanasati Vs. jhana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
starter
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter »

Hello Matheesha,

Many thanks for your kind advice:

"just by focusing on the breath, without anything else added [to the breath]"
-- do you consider Step 5 &6 of my satipatthana practice (as stated above) as the "added"?

At the beginning of my meditation, I usually need some contemplation ("directed thoughts") to settle my mind.

Metta,

Starter
Vossaga (Element)

Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Vossaga (Element) »

starter wrote:Step 1 & 2: with mental labeling – breathe in / out while discerning long/short …;
• Step 3: Experiencing the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out;
• Step 4: Experiencing the calmed formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out;
• Step 5: Discern this body’s breathing, other bodies’ breathing, this body and other bodies’ breathing;
• Step 6: Discern the arising, ceasing, arising and ceasing of the breathing.

Please see my post (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) for the reason why I interpreted "bodily fabrication" as "the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing".

Your comments and advice would be most welcome.
Hello Starter

Thank you for inviting me to comment on your response.

My comment is your interpretation is certainly beneficial, in a practical sense. In my opinion, your interpretation is more beneficial & practical than the phrase: "the whole body [of the breath]". Step 3 certainly involves discerning the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing.

Differently, my interpretation tends to follow the definition provided in the Culavedalla Sutta, where the kaya sankhara is identified as the in & out breathing. It follows step 4 is calming or stilling the in & out breathing. However, when the breathing in & out is calmed or stilled, the physical body will simultaneously be calmed & stilled. So step 4 certainly includes stilling the movements of the physical body.

I recall there was once a discussion on E-Sangha, where Venerable Dhammanando agreed it was not unacceptable to consider the term sankhara as 'fabricator' rather than exclusively as 'fabrication'. It follows, for me, the term kaya sankhara means 'the body fabricator' because the in & out breathing fabricates or conditions the state of the physical body.

For example, if the physical body feels tired, taking some deep breaths will nourish & re-energise the physical body. Or if the physical body is dead, some mouth to mouth resuscitation can bring life back to the physical body. Similarly, in meditation, calm, smooth, refined & lengthy breathing will result in the physical body being calm. Conversely, agitated, short, laboured, rough breathing will result in the physical body being agitated.

Returning to step 3, I tend to agree with Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's translation of 'sabbakaya'. Sabba or sabbe means 'all', as is commonly translated. Kaya means bodies. I draw your attention to the Anapanasati Sutta, where the Buddha utters the sentence: "I tell you bhikkus, in & out breathes are classed as bodies amongst bodies". Here, it appears unambiguous that when the Buddha used the term 'kaya', he was also referring to the in & out breathing itself.

In a practical sense, step 3 is experiencing the interrelationship between the in & out breathing (as one kaya) and the physical body (as another kaya). Of this cause & effect interrelationship, I have already given a number of examples above.

It follows your interpretation of experiencing the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing is intrinstic in step 3.

But I sense step 3 is much broader than your interpretation. It is not only to experience the movement of the breath & body together but also to discern the spiritual quality & interrelationship of those movements, as in, certain kinds of movements bring calm to the body and other kinds of movements bring stress to the body.

May your practise of Anapanasati progress.

With metta

:smile:
mlswe
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by mlswe »

Vossaga wrote:
starter wrote:When we practice Anapanasati for samadhi, should we only practice Step1-4 until reaching jhana someday, and then continue with Step 5-16 for vipassana? I suppose if we practice Anapanasati for vipassana after reaching access concentration, it's OK to do all the 16 steps; however, it's hard to enter jhana this way due to too many steps and changes.
Dear Starter

Anapanasati is a natural unfolding of sixteen experiences. When your mind can engage wisdom (panna) appropriately, in a manner that results in letting go, then stage 3 [onto stage 16] will commence. Please carefully read the Anapanasati Sutta, where beginning at stage 3, the Buddha uses the words: "He trains himself". This training is the fulfilment of the three trainings, which are sila, samadhi & panna. Anapanasati without panna is not the Buddha's anapanasati. Please read my other posts on this forum for more detail (here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

If you wish to succeed at Anapanasati, I can only suggest you let go of the samadhi/vipassana dichotomies you have learned. As I have already said, the last fourteen stages unfold naturally when the mind is established in the ariya samma samadhi, where right view is the leader, as described in MN 117, which is the prepatory sutta for MN 118 (the Anapanasati Sutta).

When the ariya samma samadhi (established in letting go, as Ajahn Brahm and I have recommended) is immature, Anapanasati will proceed on the path of neighbourhood concentration. Here, the mind can experience a plentitude of rapture & happiness, sufficient for profound vipassana. However, this level of practise is not yet jhana. Where rapture & happiness last only for a short time before subsiding, say 10 to 30 minutes, this is not yet jhana.

When and if the sixteen stages are completed on the level of neighbourhood concentration, the meditator must begin again on a much more refined level, which will lead to the jhana level. In jhana, the abiding in rapture & happiness will last for many hours, in perfect unity of mind.

The suttas do not reconcile Anapanasati and jhana. For example, the jhana discourses do not mention the experience of the underlying mental defilements (stage 9) that arise when rapture & happiness are calmed at stage 8. Stage 12 of Anapanasati, which liberates the mind from all mental defilements, including liberating the mind from any one-pointed concentration (leaving the mind bright, open, malleable & pure), seems to equate with the fourth jhana.

To end, there are many ways to use the mind. But if the mind from the outset is not established in letting go, in the abandonment of craving (including the craving to be 'concentrated'), this is not the Buddha's Anapanasati. In the Buddha's anapanasati, the practitioner "trains himself/herself" in the unification of sila, samadhi & panna, where panna is the forerunner or leader, as described in MN 117.

With metta

:meditate:
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Last edited by mlswe on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rowyourboat
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by rowyourboat »

starter wrote:Hello Matheesha,

Many thanks for your kind advice:

"just by focusing on the breath, without anything else added [to the breath]"
-- do you consider Step 5 &6 of my satipatthana practice (as stated above) as the "added"?

At the beginning of my meditation, I usually need some contemplation ("directed thoughts") to settle my mind.

Metta,

Starter
Hi Starter,

Yes, just watch the breath- all these stages 1-12 will take care of themselves. An attitude of renunciation is most beneficial. Do whatever you need to do to settle the mind at the start. Keep the practice simple, when starting- only complicate it when you are familiar with the 'terrain' and the extra bits don't disturb your concentration anymore.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Assaji
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Assaji »

Dear Vosagga,
Vossaga wrote:But if the mind from the outset is not established in letting go, in the abandonment of craving (including the craving to be 'concentrated'), this is not the Buddha's Anapanasati.
This is similar to the instructions of Ven. Sariputta in Patisambhidamagga:

"For these six reasons consciousness becomes purified, cleansed, and arrives at the unities. These are:

(vii) The unity which is the establishing of relinquishment in giving[24] which is (peculiar) to those resolved on generosity.

(viii) The unity which is the establishment of the sign of tranquillity which is (peculiar) to those who practise the higher consciousness.[25]

(ix) The unity which is the establishment of the characteristic of decay which is (peculiar) to those who have insight.[26]

(x) The unity which is the establishment of cessation which is (peculiar) to the noble persons.[27]"

http://www.bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp5 ... c166300489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro
starter
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter »

Just to share with you my new understanding of the four jhanas:

"If a monk should wish: 'May I — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enter & remain in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
-- probably equivalent to the commentarial "neighborhood/access samadhi" with piti and sukha [the mind is not yet unified] ?

"If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
-- probably similar to the 1st level of commentarial jhana [the mind is unified but still has mental and physical feelings]?

"If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the fading of rapture, remain equnimous, mindful, & alert, sense pleasure with the body, and enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding,"' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
-- probably similar to the 2nd level of commentarial jhana [mental feelings have disappeared but physical feelings/sensations are still present]?

"If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of joys & distresses — enter & remain in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.
-- probably similar to the deep level of commentarial jhana [both mental and physical feelings/sensations have disappeared]?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta to all!
darvki
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by darvki »

starter wrote:Just to share with you my new understanding of the four jhanas:
I know of at least one long-time practitioner who agrees (as far as I can tell) with your suttas/commentaries comparison.
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altar
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by altar »

Your approach sounds like a mix of how mine was when starting out, and more recently after reviewing the anapanasati sutta and sariputta's advice to rahula (suttanta). I've found, without reaching jhana, that some of these states do arise, even if for short durations only. I think it's partly due to them arising amidst impurities in the mind, other factors, and partly because of lack of environment and sustainment, and sila. There is the sutta which states that like two sticks rubbed together won't bring fire unless rubbed without stop, one doesn't reach jhana (mental purification of some sort, likely jhana). On the other hand consistency is probably more valuable than short, dedicated spurts. I would be interested to hear more about your practice.
starter
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter »

Hello, I've just found out my previous understanding of the 1st and 2nd jhana (see below) is wrong after reading MN 43. Since the correct understanding of the 1st jhana (according to the Buddha's teaching) is very important for those who wish to be liberated by wisdom, I'd like to share with you about my new understanding:

MN 43:

The first jhana

"What, friend, is the first jhana?"
"There is the case, friend, where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is called the first jhana."

"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"
"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

-- The Buddha's 1st jhana is NOT equivalent to the commentarial "Upacara samadhi" [with piti and sukha but the mind is not yet unified]. Instead the mind is unified [without disturbing thoughts].

"And how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with how many is it endowed?"
"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned.
-- This is why the Buddha always emphasized the 1st jhana before Vipassana, because only a hindrance-free mind can see the truth.

And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."

Metta to all,

Starter
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Alexei
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Alexei »

Hello starter,
starter wrote: "And how many factors does the first jhana have?"
It's a controversial question.
  • In the vast majority of cases - over 100 suttas, the first jhana is described as having only the 4 factors listed above.
    ...
    Now there are 2 suttas where 5 factors are given for the first jhana and a 3rd sutta where unification of mind is mentioned in regard to the 1st Jhana.

    http://leighb.com/jhana_4factors.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
daverupa
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by daverupa »

There's an interesting document linked in the Early Buddhism resources thread which convincingly argues that "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states" should instead translate into "in order to become secluded from sensual pleasures, in order to become secluded from unwholesome states". The Pali jhana boilerplate is possibly just a tad corrupt.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
suttametta
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by suttametta »

Nyana wrote:
legolas wrote:Not really. Nimitta, Nimitta - so important they mentioned it once?
Indeed, if you're referring to a sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and a sign of form (rūpanimitta) mentioned in MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta. Some contemporary teachers and commentators have suggested that the sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or the sign of form (rūpanimitta) mentioned in MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta are canonical references to what later came to be designated as the counterpart sign (paṭibhāganimitta) in the commentaries, and thus establishes that these nimittas were considered an essential aspect of the development of jhāna even in the early tradition.

There are a couple of points worth mentioning in this regard. Firstly, MN 128 is the only discourse where the term nimitta is used in this context. None of the other canonical occurrences of nimitta as either samādhinimitta, samatha nimitta, or cittanimitta refer to any of these nimittas being an obhāsanimitta or rūpanimitta as explained in the Upakkilesa Sutta.

Secondly, nowhere in the Upakkilesa Sutta does it state that either the obhāsanimitta or the rūpanimitta are essential prerequisites for attaining the first jhāna. Nor does this sutta maintain that the complete elimination of any experience of the five sensory spheres is essential for the arising of either of these two cognitive signs. Therefore, while these apperceptions of light and visions of form can occur during the course of meditational development, there is no explicit statement here, or elsewhere in the suttas, that such apperceptions must arise for one to enter jhāna. Indeed, even the commentarial tradition doesn’t maintain that either of these types of nimittas are essential for the first jhāna.

For example, the Vimuttimagga takes the instructions offered in the Upakkilesa Sutta to refer to the development of the divine eye. This is understandable, as Anuruddhā, the main interlocutor in this discourse with the Buddha, was later designated as the foremost disciple endowed with the divine eye.

And not even the Visuddhimagga limits counterpart signs to apperceptions of light or forms. According to the Visuddhimagga analysis, of the thirty meditations which lead to jhāna, twenty-two have counterpart signs as object. And of these, only nineteen require any sort of counterpart sign which is apprehended based solely on sight, and can therefore give rise to a mental image resulting from that nimitta (the ten stages of corpse decomposition and nine kasiṇas, excluding the air kasiṇa which can be apprehended by way of either sight or tactile sensation).

And so taking all of the above into consideration, according to the early Pāḷi dhamma there is no need to establish a jhāna nimitta (or samathanimitta or cittanimitta) apart from the jhāna factors. And even according to the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga — where the presentation of the method using a counterpart sign is explicitly developed — there is no suggestion that a counterpart sign necessarily must be a sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or a sign of form (rūpanimitta). Indeed, according to the Vimuttimagga, when employing mindfulness of breathing in order to attain jhāna, the counterpart sign should be concomitant with the pleasant feeling which arises as one attends to the breath at the nostril area or the area of the upper lip, which is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. The text says that this counterpart sign doesn’t depend on color or form, and any adventitious mental images which arise in the course of practice should not be attended to.

All the best,

Geoff
Is kasina meditation necessary for mastery over the elements, walking in space, diving in rocks, etc...? Or does these also arise from jhana due to anapanasati?
starter
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter »

Greetings, and Happy Chinese New year to all Chinese friends!

The Buddha used Anapanasati to reach the 4th jhana, and gain the supernormal power. I believe that Anapanasati alone can lead us to the "mastery over the elements, walking in space, diving in rocks, etc...", though kasina meditation can also lead to that.

By the way, Anapanasati taught in MN 118 is for practicing four mindfulness (the 7th path factor), not really for entering deep jhana, as I understand. From the suttas I've gotten a sense that the Buddha probably used simple breath meditation (watching in & out breathing, like the first tetrad of MN 118) for entering jhana. The jhana experience he obtained when he was a child certainly had nothing to do with more than watching the breath, I suppose.

Metta to all!
suttametta
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by suttametta »

starter wrote:Greetings, and Happy Chinese New year to all Chinese friends!

The Buddha used Anapanasati to reach the 4th jhana, and gain the supernormal power. I believe that Anapanasati alone can lead us to the "mastery over the elements, walking in space, diving in rocks, etc...", though kasina meditation can also lead to that.

By the way, Anapanasati taught in MN 118 is for practicing four mindfulness (the 7th path factor), not really for entering deep jhana, as I understand. From the suttas I've gotten a sense that the Buddha probably used simple breath meditation (watching in & out breathing, like the first tetrad of MN 118) for entering jhana. The jhana experience he obtained when he was a child certainly had nothing to do with more than watching the breath, I suppose.

Metta to all!
Thank you. How does one differentiate practicing anapanasati for the four foundations and seven factors vs. practicing anapanasati to enter the 4th jhana? Isn't the factor of concentration fulfilled as stated in MN 118 (meaning 4th jhana)? Or does one need to assume one is in a lower jhana via MN 118?
starter
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter »

Greetings!

I tend to think that Anapanasati described in MN 118 is for those who have mastered jhana to use it to practice 4 mindfulness, not for beginners to try to enter jhana this way. This is also one of the reasons that I think MN 10 should be practiced before MN 118.

Metta to all!
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