Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:10 pm

"There is, there isn't. There isn't, yet there is.

"Here I'm totally stymied
and can't figure it out.
Please explain what it means.

"There is birth of various causes & effects,
but they are not beings,
they all pass away.
This is clear,
the meaning of the first point:
There is, there isn't.
The second point, there isn't, yet there is:
This refers to the deep Dhamma,
the end of all three levels of existence,
where there are no sankharas,
and yet there is the stable Dhamma.
This is the Singular Dhamma, truly solitary.
The Dhamma is One & unchanging.
excelling all being, extremely still.
The object of the unmoving heart,
still & at respite,
quiet & clear.
No longer intoxicated,
no longer feverish,
its desires all uprooted,
its uncertainties shed,
its entanglement with the khandhas
all ended & appeased,
the gears of the three levels of the cosmos all broken,
overweening desire thrown away,
its loves brought to an end,
with no more possessiveness,
all troubles cured
as the heart had aspired.
~Phra Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta Mahathera

http://www.wat-lao.org/PDFs/Bibliothek/ ... andhas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:19 pm

Yes, yes, but what does it mean?
kirk5a wrote:
"There is, there isn't. There isn't, yet there is.

"Here I'm totally stymied
and can't figure it out.
Please explain what it means.

"There is birth of various causes & effects,
but they are not beings,
they all pass away.
This is clear,
the meaning of the first point:
There is, there isn't.
The second point, there isn't, yet there is:
This refers to the deep Dhamma,
the end of all three levels of existence,
where there are no sankharas,
and yet there is the stable Dhamma.
This is the Singular Dhamma, truly solitary.
The Dhamma is One & unchanging.
excelling all being, extremely still.
The object of the unmoving heart,
still & at respite,
quiet & clear.
No longer intoxicated,
no longer feverish,
its desires all uprooted,
its uncertainties shed,
its entanglement with the khandhas
all ended & appeased,
the gears of the three levels of the cosmos all broken,
overweening desire thrown away,
its loves brought to an end,
with no more possessiveness,
all troubles cured
as the heart had aspired.
~Phra Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta Mahathera

http://www.wat-lao.org/PDFs/Bibliothek/ ... andhas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, yes, but what does it mean?
lol... don't expect me to come up with something better.

But for me it really means what he says in the last line of the "Ballad of Liberation" - "Right or wrong, please ponder with discernment till you know."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:35 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes, yes, but what does it mean?
lol... don't expect me to come up with something better.

But for me it really means what he says in the last line of the "Ballad of Liberation" - "Right or wrong, please ponder with discernment till you know."
I can only shrug my shoulders.

This refers to the deep Dhamma,
the end of all three levels of existence,
where there are no sankharas,
and yet there is the stable Dhamma.
This is the Singular Dhamma, truly solitary.
The Dhamma is One & unchanging.
excelling all being, extremely still.
Looking at words such as this, they apparently mean something. Now, the assumption the Ven Mun was an arahant, so what he speaks must be the truth and must accurately reflect the Dhamma, the Buddha's teachings. Or . . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

starter
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by starter » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:59 pm

"There is, there isn't [conditioned phenomena]. There isn't , yet there is [unconditioned nibbana].

"Here I'm totally stymied
and can't figure it out.
Please explain what it means.

"There is birth of various causes & effects,
but they are not beings,
they all pass away.
This is clear,
the meaning of the first point:
There is, there isn't. -- [conditioned phenomena].

The second point, there isn't, yet there is:
This refers to the deep [unconditioned] Dhamma,
the end of all three levels of existence,
where there are no sankharas,
and yet there is the stable Dhamma.
This is the Singular Dhamma, truly solitary.
The Dhamma is One & unchanging.
excelling all being, extremely still.
The object of the unmoving heart,
still & at respite,
quiet & clear.
No longer intoxicated,
no longer feverish,
its desires all uprooted,
its uncertainties shed,
its entanglement with the khandhas
all ended & appeased,
the gears of the three levels of the cosmos all broken,
overweening desire thrown away,
its loves brought to an end,
with no more possessiveness,
all troubles cured
as the heart had aspired. -- [unconditioned nibbana].

~Phra Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta Mahathera

http://www.wat-lao.org/PDFs/Bibliothek/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... andhas.pdf

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:01 pm

unconditioned nibbana
And let us not forget that by definition in the suttas that "unconditioned nibbana" to arahant no longer being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

starter
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by starter » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:21 pm

Hi some food for thought:

Passages from suttas:

"Whatever states there are, whether conditioned or unconditioned, of these detachment is reckoned foremost, that is, the subduing of vanity, the elimination of thirst, the removal of reliance, the termination of the round (of rebirths), the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, Nibbana. Those who have faith in the Dhamma of detachment have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost." -- The Buddha

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements.

These two Nibbana-elements were made known By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:

One is the element seen here and now With residue,
but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being."

-- § 44. The Nibbana-element {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}

""What, sire, is the Blessed One's jewel of the analytical knowledges? ... Whoever shall ask me a question on the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, to him I shall speak comparing doctrine with doctrine, the deathless with the deathless, the unconditioned with the unconditioned, Nibbana with Nibbana, emptiness with emptiness, the signless with the signless [non-manifestive], the undirected with the undirected, the imperturbable with the imperturbable." -- A Question (Solved by) Inference [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html]

"When I had learnt of the undying state (nibbana), the unconditioned, through the instruction of the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I was highly and well restrained in the precepts and established in the Dhamma taught by the most excellent of men, the Awakened One." ... When I knew the undefiled place, the unconditioned, taught by the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I then and there experienced the calm concentration (of the noble path). That supreme certainty of release was mine." -- Sirima: Sirima's Mansion [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html]


Passages from other sources:

A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist Terms: [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html]

nibbida [nibbidaa]:
Disenchantment; aversion; disgust; weariness. The skillful turning-away of the mind from the conditioned samsaric world towards the unconditioned, the transcendent — nibbana



"Dhammaa can be applied to both conditioned and unconditioned things and states. It embraces both conditioned and unconditioned things including Nibbana." -- Ven. Narada Thera

"Nibbana, the Deathless, the unconditioned state [instead of a place] where there is no more birth, aging and death, and no more suffering".

"The highest fruition of merit is identical with the culmination of the Buddhist holy life itself — that is, emancipation from the shackles of samsaric existence and the realization of Nibbana, the unconditioned state beyond the insubstantial phenomena of the world." -- Bikkhu Bodhi

"Ultimate truth, in the Buddha's Teaching, is Nibbana, the unconditioned element (asankhata dhatu), and realization of ultimate truth the realization of Nibbana. Nibbana is the perfection of purity: the destruction of all passions, the eradication of clinging, the abolition of every impulse towards self-affirmation. The final thrust to the realization of Nibbana is the special province of wisdom, since wisdom alone is adequate to the task of comprehending all conditioned phenomena in their essential nature as impermanent, suffering and not-self, and of turning away from them to penetrate the unconditioned, where alone permanent freedom from suffering is to be found. But that this penetration may take place, our interior must be made commensurate in purity with the truth it would grasp, and this requires in the first instance that it be purged of all those elements obstructive to the florescence of a higher light and knowledge. The apprehension of Nibbana, this perfect purity secluded from the dust of passion, is only possible when a corresponding purity has been set up within ourselves. For only a pure mind can discern, through the dark mist of ignorance and defilement, the spotless purity of Nibbana, abiding in absolute solitude beyond the turmoil of the phenomenal procession. -- Bikkhu Bodhi

"With its cessation [of the five aggregates], there remained the experience of the unconditioned, which he also termed nibbana (Unbinding), consciousness without surface or feature, the Deathless [if not this transcendental consciousness, then what is deathless?]" -- The Meaning of the Buddha's Awakening by Thanissaro Bhikkhu [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ening.html]

Metta to all!

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:58 pm

starter wrote:Hi some food for thought:. . . .
And what is an "element" in this context; how is "element" used in other contexts in the suttas? One needs to be very careful about what one reads into these words. The interesting thing is that there is no sutta that states that there is a nibbana thing outside and other than the nibbanized arahant.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
This refers to the deep Dhamma,
the end of all three levels of existence,
where there are no sankharas,
and yet there is the stable Dhamma.
This is the Singular Dhamma, truly solitary.
The Dhamma is One & unchanging.
excelling all being, extremely still.
Looking at words such as this, they apparently mean something.

I'd say they suggest something, they point to something that can be known experientially. Ajahn Amaro took a stab at recasting that, in words:
In the Sanskrit that would be skandhas: the body, feelings,
perceptions, mental formations, consciousness. So the Dharma is
the Dharma and the skandhas are the skandhas. There is the conditioned; there is the unconditioned. There is mind; there is
mind-essence. That’s it. This is all we need to know.
Tilt:
Now, the assumption the Ven Mun was an arahant, so what he speaks must be the truth and must accurately reflect the Dhamma, the Buddha's teachings. Or . . . .
I'm fine with assuming he was an arahant. I can't know that for sure though. So, I'm not taking up as a position that he definitely was and his words must accurately reflect the Dhamma. Why would I do that, and how could I do that, not having that depth of experience where I can speak at that level and say, yep, that's how it is folks.

That is why, I think, Ajahn Mun concluded with this:
With that, the tale is ended. Right or wrong,
please ponder with discernment till you know.
In other words, even he didn't try to defend what he said and justify it in terms of the Buddha's teachings as found in the suttas. He just said (as I read it) "If i'm right or wrong, now you go see for yourself." What else are we really left to do? We could go rummaging around in the suttas until our heads explode trying to defend or deny those words. If even we reach a conclusion, either way, whether they are an accurate reflection of the Dhamma, or not, here we are again. Then what.

That said, I personally feel Ajahn Mun's telling is closer to what the Buddha was talking about than this "total cessation" business, and is certainly, at least, a weighty counterpoint to that notion. But hey, I'll keep on the lookout for whatever is of the nature to cease, to cease. :smile:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:35 pm

kirk5a wrote: Ajahn Amaro took a stab at recasting that, in words:
In the Sanskrit that would be skandhas: the body, feelings,
perceptions, mental formations, consciousness. So the Dharma is
the Dharma and the skandhas are the skandhas. There is the conditioned; there is the unconditioned. There is mind; there is
mind-essence. That’s it. This is all we need to know.
Is that all we need to know. There is "the uncondituioned" what? If one takes a look at how "asankhata" is used in the suttas, (not just one or two texts) one is very hard pressed to find a "the unconditioned" that is other than the nibbanized arahant free of greed, hatred, and delusion.
That said, I personally feel Ajahn Mun's telling is closer to what the Buddha was talking about than this "total cessation" business, and is certainly, at least, a weighty counterpoint to that notion. But hey, I'll keep on the lookout for whatever is of the nature to cease, to cease. :smile:
Am I advocating "total cessation?" "Total cessation" of what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Am I advocating "total cessation?" "Total cessation" of what?
I'm not sure what you're advocating. I had Matheesha's comments in mind. He appears to be advocating the view of Nibbana as the total cessation of everything and the kitchen sink.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:53 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Am I advocating "total cessation?" "Total cessation" of what?
I'm not sure what you're advocating. I had Matheesha's comments in mind. He appears to be advocating the view of Nibbana as the total cessation of everything and the kitchen sink.
That is not my position, but neither is my position that there IS some thing remaining, or that nibbana IS soimething attained, or that nibbana IS some thing that has reality beyond, without the nibbanaized arahant.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That is not my position, but neither is my position that there IS some thing remaining, or that nibbana IS soimething attained, or that nibbana IS some thing that has reality beyond, without the nibbanaized arahant.
So you've said here was is not your position. But what IS your position?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:20 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is not my position, but neither is my position that there IS some thing remaining, or that nibbana IS soimething attained, or that nibbana IS some thing that has reality beyond, without the nibbanaized arahant.
So you've said here was is not your position. But what IS your position?
Simply what the texts say. The arahant/tathagata is trackless and not measured by any terms, anything that would suggest, even subtly, existence or non-exitence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta vs contemplations of death & metta vs merits making

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:34 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Simply what the texts say. The arahant/tathagata is trackless and not measured by any terms, anything that would suggest, even subtly, existence or non-exitence.
And as for nibbana as known/experienced/realized/made real/whatever? Does it involve the cessation of all consciousness and awareness? Personally I am confused as to what the texts are saying regarding that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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