Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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robertk
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Post by robertk »

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, this is still going?

Presumably the Satipatthana Sutta (and the various variants in the SN) are canonical enough? Leaving aside for a moment the details of the vipassana nanas (which are not of particular pressing importance in one's day to day practice), it's this Sutta that the "vipassana" approaches are based on.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings?

Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling."

Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.[12] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings.
:anjali:
Mike
In the satipatthana sutta, all possible dhammas are objects for satipatthana: i.e the ones we experience all day, pleasant feelings, unpleasant feelings, anger, lust,fear, heat, cold, .......

But to highlight any of those and say "if you experience fear, or unpleasant feeling,dizziness etc" that is a sign you are going towards nibbana is kind of hilarious. I live in thailand and I meet relatively frequently people who think strange experiences(or even normal ones) are signs of their awakening or imminent awakening that its hard not to laugh out loud sometimes. The two monks I met last year at Wat Dhammakaya who explained to me how the Buddh image they see in meditation is a sure sign is really no diffent than this thread.
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mikenz66
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: But to highlight any of those and say "if you experience fear, or unpleasant feeling,dizziness etc" that is a sign you are going towards nibbana is kind of hilarious. I live in thailand and I meet relatively frequently people who think strange experiences(or even normal ones) are signs of their awakening or imminent awakening that its hard not to laugh out loud sometimes. The two monks I met last year at Wat Dhammakaya who explained to me how the Buddh image they see in meditation is a sure sign is really no diffent than this thread.
I agree (I think) and I think Tilt is saying much the same thing here:
tiltbillings wrote: Tying "attainments" to physical manifestations leaves a bit of something to be desired. It is very hard to take it seriously. In the descriptions you have offered (then edited out) and what you are offering now do not seem to point to anything beyond what Ajahn Sumedho stated: just more stuff of which to let go.
I think that too much is being read into the text in the link in the OP, which looks to me like a clumsy translation. It is quite difficult for me to figure out what some of it means.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: http://watbuddhaoregon.com/view_forums/ ... PIC_ID=171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't understand, when did I refer to those links?
The first link is part of the OP and the second link is an extention of the conversation. If you are going to be critical of Burmese vipassana, it would nice to know exactly what it is of which you are critical. Using these two linked texts would be a good way at getting at that, but if you choose not to use those texts, then being a bit more expansive with something of substance than your snippy one-liners might help for an actual discussion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Post by rowyourboat »

I feel the following may hopefully clarify the matter:

Sutamaya panna (academic/book learning)
Nature: conceptual, not connected to immediate experience, not emotional
Advantages: helps to form a degree of Right view, as well as get instructions for meditation practice
Disadvantages: can easily lead to clinging to one's views, leading to debate/argument and suffering in turn

Cintamaya panna (contemplation of the truth learnt)
Nature: conceptual framework through which the practitioner views his current experience
Advantages: allows for deepening of Right view, MAY reach the paths-fruits (attainments) through this, - no guarantee. Some emotional component, secondary to Insight, to be expected.
Disadvantages: can lead to depression, when anicca, dukkha, anatta is repeatedly contemplated.

Bhavanamaya panna (meditative 'seeing')
Nature: Direct 'seeing' or experiencing the truths in relation to the phenomena being observed. Non- conceptual. Works at a pre-verbal level. Deepest 'implanting' of insight knowledge
Advantages: guaranteed to reach non-returner or arahanth within 7 years of continuous practice. Strongest if the methods to insight (may need other types of wisdom as a base to develop on).
Disadvantages: mental fatigue from being mindful 16-18 hours a day, leading to the 'fevers of mind/body' mentioned in the sutta I posted previously. Emotional reactions secondary to Insight common. (and need to be managed with the help of a qualified teacher).

Samatha meditation- blissful mind states, occassionsl outbreaks of defilements. No major emotional events secondary to meditation. Most people doing only this would have NO recognition of vipassana meditation and it's effects.

Finally- try doing this without giving rise to strong emotion:
A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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