Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.
Yes. That is why I asked what you are referring to with the term "dhamma". I did not ask what a "dhamma" is.

Kind regards
Because of what a dhamma "is" is why I am talking about dhamma. The OP is asking what "things" are unconditioned. Sabbe dhamma anatta, all dhammas are empty of self-ness. Dhammas is understood to be inclusive of nibbana. The point is that there is no "thing" that is free of conditioning; rather, there "is" only the experience not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by ground »

So

Firstly:
tiltbillings wrote:We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.
Since you said
"Nibbana is a dhamma."
and
"Dhammas are ways of talking about experience."

I may conclude that nibbana denotes a relation to a thought or to an instance of "being conscious of ... (i.e. to a mind and its object)".

This aspect appears to be conditioned, conditioned by "thought" or "being conscious of ...".

Secondly:
tiltbillings wrote:Because of what a dhamma "is" is why I am talking about dhamma. The OP is asking what "things" are unconditioned. Sabbe dhamma anatta, all dhammas are empty of self-ness. Dhammas is understood to be inclusive of nibbana. The point is that there is no "thing" that is free of conditioning; rather, there "is" only the experience not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
This aspect, the experience, appears to be conditioned too. Why? Because it is not being "conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion" and because this "not being conditioned" is not the "state of being" in the first place there have to be causes and conditions for it to arise.

To summarize:
Now "nibbana" denotes the thought of such a kind of "experience". It is not the experience, it does not refer to the experience directly but it refers to the thought about such an experience. This sounds too complicated. It appears more straightforward to simply say "'Nibbana' qua term is just a thought".

But since "nibbana" qua term is a just a term one may apply any other term one would want to to refer to the thought about any kind of experience. E.g. someone would want to to say "I experienced 'God'" thus applying the term "God" to refer to an experience.

So IMO a valid question is:
What renders a term "valid" for an alleged experience that one has not yet experienced?

And if any alleged experience is a "dhamma" to which a term may refer then "God" refers to a dhamma too.

If "God" does not refer to a dhamma but "nibbana" does then what is this differentiation based on?

Kind regards
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

TMingyur wrote:so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards
Yes, it is a thing. It is a word used to describe the unconditioned and the uncompounded. That is why I said, "That is all". There is no way to articulate Nibbana. None, so this is a useful term to describe it in relation to our discernment and understanding. I recommend not becoming carried away by words.
Last edited by Wizard in the Forest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:. . .
Nonesense. Nibbana is experience free from conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is the only "thing" that is. One does not need to descend into that quagmire of nagarjunian nonsense to make a simple point that addresses the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
TMingyur wrote:so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards
Yes, it is a thing. It is a word used to describe the unconditioned and the uncompounded. That is why I said, "That is all".
Now, you are going to be subjected to TMingyur's nagajunian analysis. You don't want that. Honestly, there is no "the unconditioned and the uncompounded" other than the individual who has been nibbanized -- that is to say, one who is no longer conditioned/compounded by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:. . .
Nonesense. Nibbana is experience free from conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is the only "thing" that is. One does not need to descend into that quagmire of nagarjunian nonsense to make a simple point that addresses the OP.
Hmh ... "Nonesense" ...brilliant argument ...

However this has not much to do with Nagarjuna ... it just your pre-conditioning that makes it appear to you in that way.

Kind regards
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Nagarjuna did not deny the existence of nibbana, but rather the fruitlessness of trying to describe it in words. This is because words are just complex schematics conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. Nibbana is unconditioned, and uncompounded. So to say it is a "thing", and a "word" is factual.
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:. . .
Nonesense. Nibbana is experience free from conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is the only "thing" that is. One does not need to descend into that quagmire of nagarjunian nonsense to make a simple point that addresses the OP.
Hmh ... "Nonesense" ...brilliant argument ...
Better than yours
However this has not much to do with Nagarjuna ... it just your pre-conditioning that makes it appear to you in that way.
Well, whatever your "argument" has to do with, it does not have anything to to do with what the suttas say. There is no point in the papañca of your point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:Nagarjuna did not deny the existence of nibbana, but rather the fruitlessness of trying to describe it in words. This is because words are just complex schematics conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. Nibbana is unconditioned, and uncompounded. So to say it is a "thing", and a "word" is factual.
The only thing you said here that is correct: Nibbana is unconditioned, and uncompounded.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata [unconditioned/uncompounded]. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321.

There "is" no nibbana outside of the process of the individual nibbanized, the individual who is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

tiltbillings wrote: The only thing you said here that is correct: Nibbana is unconditioned, and uncompounded.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata [unconditioned/uncompounded]. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321.

There "is" no nibbana outside of the process of the individual nibbanized, the individual who is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred and delusion.
You see, I have no argument with that, but I think T Mingyur is talking about the "Thingification" or word of Nibbana, and then to that I said "nibbana" is a word to describe the unconditioned and uncompounded. The word itself isn't nibbana. (And I wasn't implying what Nagarjuna spoke of has any truth value btw.)
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: The only thing you said here that is correct: Nibbana is unconditioned, and uncompounded.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata [unconditioned/uncompounded]. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321.

There "is" no nibbana outside of the process of the individual nibbanized, the individual who is no longer conditioned by greed, hatred and delusion.
You see, I have no argument with that, but I think T Mingyur is talking about the "Thingification" or word of Nibbana, and then to that I said "nibbana" is a word to describe the unconditioned and uncompounded. The word itself isn't nibbana. (And I wasn't implying what Nagarjuna spoke of has any truth value btw.)
I know that was what he was talking about. As far as I am concerned for this thread, it was totally unnecessary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:...You see, I have no argument with that, but I think T Mingyur is talking about the "Thingification" or word of Nibbana, and then to that I said "nibbana" is a word to describe the unconditioned and uncompounded. The word itself isn't nibbana. (And I wasn't implying what Nagarjuna spoke of has any truth value btw.)
I know that was what he was talking about. As far as I am concerned for this thread, it was totally unnecessary.
That is not really the point.
TMingyur wrote: So IMO a valid question is:
What renders a term "valid" for an alleged experience that one has not yet experienced?

And if any alleged experience is a "dhamma" to which a term may refer then "God" refers to a dhamma too.

If "God" does not refer to a dhamma but "nibbana" does then what is this differentiation based on?

Kind regards

Kind regards
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Post by tiltbillings »

.
TMingyur wrote: So IMO a valid question is:
What renders a term "valid" for an alleged experience that one has not yet experienced?

And if any alleged experience is a "dhamma" to which a term may refer then "God" refers to a dhamma too.

If "God" does not refer to a dhamma but "nibbana" does then what is this differentiation based on?

Kind regards
Which is in my opinion is is beside the point of the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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