The exact terms are PRECEDED BY , that means one in front of the other. It doesn't say one vipassana INSIDE samatha.legolas wrote: None of the above implies that within the first two instances, that one comes out of jhana to practice vipassana, merely that sooner or later the two have to go together.
1.“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
2. "Then there is the case where a bhikkhu has developed tranquillity preceded by insight (Vipassanā-pubbaṅgamaṃ samatham). As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it. While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed.
I was using the term jhana to mean meditation in general the way Yuttadhama used it. But since you are using it as the text does ,now I will use it to refer to the four jhanas in Samma Samadhi. Noticed that the only the Four Jhanas are included in Samma Samadhi ( Right Concentration) but not the other states that are expansive. Concentration or Samadhi has to do with one-pointedness rather than expansive as the other states not included in Samma Samadhi.legolas wrote: The point made by Nana, about jhana being vast & expansive is well made. In the suttas there are only four "jhana's" - the immaterial states are never called jhana. So when jhana is described as being vast & expansive it can only apply in that context to the first four jhana. Later commentary starts talking about 8 jhana's, this is a case of later commentary blurring what is jhana and what is not.
Where in the ((( suttas))))) does it say cetavimutti is the jhanas or that they are the same thing.
It doesn't say expansive here, but rather concentrated .Nanna wrote: What at that time is samatha? That which at that time is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, thorough steadfastness of mind, unshakableness, non-distraction, imperturbability, calmness of mind, faculty of concentration, strength of concentration, right concentration. This at that time is samatha.
The sutta below shows that a samadhi where thoughts about the dhamma is still present, has not achieved mental unification, has not attained to full tranquility. So when you are pondering or thinking about dhamma to arouse insight within meditation is not considered full samadhi.Nanna wrote: The suttas you're quoting don't support the premise you seem to be trying to establish.
" there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta