Taking members seriously

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retrofuturist
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:43 am

I can just see it now...

Image

:D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Dan74
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Dan74 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:I can just see it now...

Image

:D

Metta,
Retro. :)
:clap:
_/|\_

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Annapurna
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Annapurna » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:08 am

Hm...

I find most helpful as an occasional reminder this suttha....that's not to say I am able to do it.


http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www. ... G55irFDWXg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:09 pm

I wasn't motivated by self pity so much as a sense that others might have had the same kind of experience here that I've had and that I've seen.

I understood Retro's invitation to be this: If I felt there were problems worth addressing and discussing, then I was invited to come here to the suggestion box and make a thread, if that would be helpful. So I did that.

An objection I have had is that it seems to me that people are not treated as kindly here as they should expect to be on a Dhamma discussion board. I imagined that other people might feel the same way. I thought it was worth having a public discussion about. I understood Retro's suggestion to mean that I could open such a discussion safely, and that it would be welcome. Clearly, I misunderstood.

One thing has become obvious: Under no circumstances will public criticism of the mod/admin team be acceptable to the mod/admin team or to most members here. It's said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I was expecting different results this time, in this thread. Maybe that was crazy.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:19 pm

btw, Annapurna, thanks for the sutta link. It is familiar to me: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 30&p=45459" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:39 pm

Jechbi;

I think the more often you post complaints the greater is the likelihood that people will see you as being the problem.....whether that is correct or incorrect. You are going to open yourself up to a lot of unfair criticism which will only make you feel more wronged.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:43 pm

Jechbi wrote:An objection I have had is that it seems to me that people are not treated as kindly here as they should expect to be on a Dhamma discussion board. I imagined that other people might feel the same way. I thought it was worth having a public discussion about. I understood Retro's suggestion to mean that I could open such a discussion safely, and that it would be welcome. Clearly, I misunderstood.
Maybe you went about it a bit ham-handedly. If you failed, it could actually be your fault.
One thing has become obvious: Under no circumstances will public criticism of the mod/admin team be acceptable to the mod/admin team or to most members here. It's said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I was expecting different results this time, in this thread. Maybe that was crazy.
And this very thread and your comments in it belies your statement. You certainly have criticized me as, in your opinion, a moderator acting badly, which is what you set out to do, but I think as the object of your criticism, I should be able to respond to the criticism as should others here as they see fit, since you put this out there publicly. That is what has happened. What did you think would happen? I am not allowed to respond to the public criticism directed at me? What exactly do you want here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:45 pm

No doubt, Jhana4, and there are times of course when I have done just that. We've all done that, I'm sure, because it's in the nature of life to face those types of situations sometimes.

I completely misunderstood the invitation to post in this suggestion box, thinking that in this one case, it would be acceptable here to offer this feedback.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:51 pm

tiltbillings wrote:What exactly do you want here?
In this thread, I wanted what I thought had been offered: a helpful discussion. I wasn't looking for or expecting more fireworks.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:56 pm

Jechbi wrote: I completely misunderstood the invitation to post in this suggestion box, thinking that in this one case, it would be acceptable here to offer this feedback.
It is acceptable to offer feedback, look at the length of this thread( or that it exists at all). That doesn't mean that people are going to agree with you.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:59 pm

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What exactly do you want here?
In this thread, I wanted what I thought had been offered: a helpful discussion. I wasn't looking for or expecting more fireworks.
And you had no part to play in the fireworks? The example you chose was not very good, but why would think that if you are going to criticize me that that I would not respond? Why would not think that if you are going to criticize me that others here might not respond as they have?

You actually got what you wanted. You expressed a criticism of me as a moderator, and the discussion that followed was helpful, but obviously not in the way you hoped. Life is like that, sometimes, huh?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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andre9999
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by andre9999 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:10 pm

As I've learned since being married, sometimes it's best to just shut up. Chances are good that opening your mouth is just going to make things worse.

Instead of opening this suggestion thread immediately after the last heated discussion, it may have been more helpful to come back to it a week later and see if this thread really needed to be started. Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.

And that's not to say that you're right or wrong. This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.

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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:26 pm

andre9999 wrote: This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.
What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here? Clearly the idea of taking members here seriously by the staff is important and I try to do that, though not being perfect and all . . . .

I think is it important to understand that a thread such as this is highly unpredictable as to what direction is going to take, and I do not think one should be either surprised or disappointed that it goes off in a particular direction. That is simply what happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:32 pm

andre9999 wrote:Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.
Absolutely. I certainly have done this. For me, it's very good practice to deliberately send metta and thoughts of good will not only to myself and the people I care about, but also to people I am neutral about and to people with whom I have had disputes.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:45 pm

Tilt, earlier you told me:
tiltbillings wrote:No one is telling you do not have legitimate grievances
So there are different possible focal points for comments in this tread, including:
1) The underlying concerns about things that sometimes happen on this board; and
2) My manner if conveying those concerns.

Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns. Few have focused on the underlying concerns. I don't want to dwell on it or try to prove a point. I don't want to litigate. I don't want to dig around and come up with lots of examples. But I also don't want to keep having the focus put again and again on my manner of conveying these concerns. That wasn't supposed to be the topic.
tiltbillings wrote:What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here?
No, certainly not. I can't tell you exactly what an "effective" outcome might be for this discussion. A discussion like this is what the participants make of it. I will say that I have seen venues where leadership receives public criticism without the critics being subject to a backlash. I have seen venues where leadership receives criticism graciously and uses it as a starting point to begin to explore what prompted the underlying concerns to be expressed. I have seen venues where, even if the criticism seems unfair, the leadership gives it due consideration, with the benefit of the doubt, and examines publicly in what manner the leadership itself might have inadvertantly elicited those concerns.

I think an "effective" outcome also will always be one in which we all continue to treat one another in a friendly way and with respect.

I accept my faults in the manner in which I have raised these concerns. I would love to see Dhamma Wheel as a venue where leadership can publicly make lemonade out of those lemons.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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