Working at a Glock factory?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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kirk5a
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:13 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:Hi everyone!

Sorry for bursting in here like that without introducing myself - I'm just in a hurry (I'll definitely do that later though :-) ).

I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?

:namaste:
It sounds to me like you are trying to follow the Buddha's teachings on right livelihood and so you're already conflicted about the weapons factory. So I think you can probably see how this would set up waves of doubt and inner conflict about your job, if you did take it. Hold out for something there isn't any inner conflict about. That will be worth a lot for your peace of mind.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote: I'm desperately seeking a job, it's incredibly hard to find one and I'm also in a hurry because I'm under pressure by our employment office, but I'm not sure whether working at a Glock factory could be considered particularly skillful? Right livelihood means not trading with weapons and earning your living with peaceful means, but - I need a job; some job.

What do you think about this?
Have you talked to the agency about having religious issues with working in such a place?

Have you considered taking the job only temporarily while you look for another job?

I'm not a gun expert, but Glocks are handguns. The biggest market for glocks are Police Officers and people buying a gun to keep in a drawer for home protection. Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.

The last point you should consider is rhetorical. It only matters what you think about this issue. Are you asking for a clarification of what is written in the Pali Canon or are you looking for a feeling of approval from others here?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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kirk5a
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.
Hm. Except the weapon used in the shooting of congresswoman Giffords was "reported to be a 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine".

Just sayin. Couldn't help but research that claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Jhana4
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Jhana4 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:22 pm

I didn't know that, I heard it was an automatic weapon, which I assumed was machine gun.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Phoenix1991
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Phoenix1991 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:40 pm

pilgrim wrote:There seems to be a kind of "exception" ( for lack of a more appropriate word) on Right Livelihood if your mind is free or relatively free from defilements. See Dhammapada 124 and its commentary. Not that I recommend the job but if you find yourself in it, you may wish to bear this in mind.
Thank you!
Well, I certainly don't want to work at an arms factory. I don't want to take part in the production of any part of a weapon.

Annapurna wrote:What's your qualification?

I'm sure you can find a kitchen, pizza delivery, messenger, garbage job...? Wood chuck? Farm hand?

Putting weapons together is uncool and I think the unemploment office must respect religious limitations.
I graduated from a commercial school. This qualifies me for offices, the retail sector, banks and so on. I'm mostly looking for employment in the retail sector, because chances of getting into an office or bank are close to zero in these times - not that I'm particularly keen on a job at a bank either.
I worked at McDonald's for a week, but the working conditions were awful - I literally had nightmares about the job each day of the week and I couldn't arrange it with my transportation opportunities either, so I had to leave.
I'm by now also looking for a part-time job. It would be better than nothing and it would get me away from the employment office. :shrug: Unfortunately my options are still very limited considering where I live; I don't yet have my driving licence (working on it).

Well, that same employment office once wanted to put a vegetarian whom I know into a butchery. She flat-out refused though. :)

I talked to the course instructor today and she said it's okay, if I keep looking for another job instead of applying at the Glock factory. Phew! :twothumbsup:

kirk5a wrote:It sounds to me like you are trying to follow the Buddha's teachings on right livelihood and so you're already conflicted about the weapons factory. So I think you can probably see how this would set up waves of doubt and inner conflict about your job, if you did take it. Hold out for something there isn't any inner conflict about. That will be worth a lot for your peace of mind.
Peace of mind would be the absolutely last thing that job would give me.

Jhana4 wrote:Have you considered taking the job only temporarily while you look for another job?
[...]
The last point you should consider is rhetorical. It only matters what you think about this issue. Are you asking for a clarification of what is written in the Pali Canon or are you looking for a feeling of approval from others here?
I only considered it as a temporary solution in the first place.

I wanted to know what the Pali Canon says to that and talk it through with people who know what I'm talking about (which is sth neither, for example, my parents nor my course instructors qualify for) and hear their interpretations.

kirk5a wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Criminals and psychopathic right wingers looking to gun down congresswomen will be buying other types of gun and criminals will be buying illegal ( stolen or smuggled ) guns.
Hm. Except the weapon used in the shooting of congresswoman Giffords was "reported to be a 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine".
All weapons can potenially be sold illegally and get into the wrong hands. So can and do Glock pistols (among other cases there was a big scandal a few years ago about Glock pistols being present in big quantities on the black market in Iraq).


:namaste:
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau

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kirk5a
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:51 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote: All weapons can potenially be sold illegally and get into the wrong hands. So can and do Glock pistols (among other cases there was a big scandal a few years ago about Glock pistols being present in big quantities on the black market in Iraq).
Very true. But, in this case, that is not what happened.

"Loughner cleared a federal background check and bought the pistol at a big-box sports store near his home on Nov. 30 — two months after the college suspended him. He customized the weapon with an extended ammunition clip, which would have been illegal six years ago."

Again, I just had to see if that was what happened in this case. If there is the idea that criminals must have gotten a weapon illegally, well that just isn't true.

Good that you don't have to work there. Good luck in your search!

http://www.htrnews.com/article/20110112 ... y=nav|head" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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DNS
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by DNS » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote: I wanted to know what the Pali Canon says to that and talk it through with people who know what I'm talking about (which is sth neither, for example, my parents nor my course instructors qualify for) and hear their interpretations.
Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.” Anguttara Nikaya 5.177

The Pali word is for business or trade, which seems to suggest that it is the business owner, not the employees. Also it is not the employees intent on how those weapons might be used. I am familiar with the Glock weapons and know that it is mostly the police and military that purchase and possess these weapons.

In a similar way, a person might work at a restaurant that serves alcohol (business in intoxicants), but such a person is not drinking the alcohol and is only serving what the customer ordered.

Owning the gun business or owning the restaurant that serves alcohol is another matter and probably not appropriate.

Thought I would just throw out one possible interpretation that might allow you to work there, if you so choose, but understand if you decide it is best not to do so.

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:58 pm

I think that in forming an opinion about this subject it would be useful to stay withing a realm of what is reasonable and down to Earth.

By that, I don't think it is useful or rational to try to imagine every possibility under the sun.

Is it ethical to work in factory that makes pencils out of recycled material? Well, maybe a serial killer with a bad memory will use one of my pencils to kill more people by using my pencil to keep a to-do list to be a more effective killer.

See what I mean?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Mawkish1983 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:31 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Is it ethical to work in factory that makes pencils out of recycled material? Well, maybe a serial killer with a bad memory will use one of my pencils to kill more people by using my pencil to keep a to-do list to be a more effective killer.
Slippery slope. The OP was about working in a weapons factory. The Buddha gave guidelines about this exact situation. I don't recall the Buddha ever saying it was unwholesome to work in a factory manufactoring pencils.

Edit to correct hyperlink

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:11 pm

Like David wrote earlier, Glocks are mostly used legally by the police and military. While those two bodies are used unethically sometimes by our government, they also keep us safe.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by lojong1 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:29 am

Phoenix1991 wrote:I need a job; some job.
\
In order to what?
I don't see much point in trying to talk you out of it, but I'm sure you have less harmful options. Are they really more frightening in the long run?

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Phoenix1991
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Phoenix1991 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:04 pm

kirk5a wrote:If there is the idea that criminals must have gotten a weapon illegally, well that just isn't true.

Good that you don't have to work there. Good luck in your search!
Of course it's not; you're absolutely right.

Thank you! :)

lojong1 wrote:
Phoenix1991 wrote:I need a job; some job.
\
In order to what?
I don't see much point in trying to talk you out of it, but I'm sure you have less harmful options. Are they really more frightening in the long run?
Erm... In order to make a living?

You don't need to talk me into or out of anything - that approach wouldn't work with me anyway; I like making my own decisions. ;)
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by PeterB » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:03 pm

Which is presumably why you decided to ask a bunch of total and anonymous strangers what they think about a major life decision.

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Phoenix1991
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Phoenix1991 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:39 pm

The only thing I asked for were facts from the Pali Canon and possibly your interpretation of it.

<sarcasm> Sorry for not personally knowing any other Theravada Buddhists and/or people familiar with this matter. </sarcasm>
"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old." - Franz Kafka
"Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves." - Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Post by Annapurna » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:31 pm

Hey Phoenix, and asking us was perfectly ok.

I do the same thing: I ask a few people for their opinions and then make my own decision.

Keep asking, we're happy to offer what we know.

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