Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

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Mawkish1983
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Mawkish1983 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Nice to see we're back on topic. ;) Mawkish will be pleased.
:) alas, like all things, it was temporary :lol:

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Jechbi
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jechbi » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:08 am

I'd like to clarify that the blog was never intended to make any misrepresentations, and if it contains any, I hope I have addressed them. If not, I will do so upon specific request. (Tilt, I've changed the wording in the "mindful masturbation" reference. You have persuaded me that I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I apologize for misunderstanding you. I also wish to articulate to you exactly the same apology: It was never my intent to be hurtful to you, but that does not excuse my behavior. By acts of commission and omission, for what I pain I have caused you, I am sorry.)

I'd like to clarify that the blog was never intended to be a place to "vent." It was supposed to be a place to open up discussion that cannot occur otherwise. Yes, I have offered criticism. Yes, I have provided a few examples of instances when I think discussion on Dhamma Wheel (and elsewhere) was counterproductive to the goal of sharing Dhamma. I have tried to be specific in those cases, and I have tried to focus on the acts that occurred, not the nature of the people involved. I have abiding respect for Tilt, Retro and everyone here as fellow human beings struggling along this hard path.

I believe Jhana4 suggested I go into minutiae in this thread. I don't think that's a good idea in this thread. I don't think the thread is supposed to be about me. If people are interested, they can go to the blog.

Here is my suggestion for how to improve the DW experience: Create a place on the board where members can publicly comment on moderator and administrator decisions, as well as moderator and administrator conduct. Lift the restrictions on that type of criticism. Open yourselves to public criticism here on this board, from any and all members, even if you think the criticism is unfair. And allow the criticism to stand and be visible when it is made (unless there are compelling reasons not to, such as threats or defamation).

If you create such a place on this board, I will take down any parts of the blog that you ask me to, as long as you do not ask me to delete the whole thing. I like some of the non-Dhamma Wheel posts there. Bottom line: If public criticism of moderator and administrator decisions and conduct had been allowed, the blog would have had no reason to exist.

Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:11 am

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:Here is my suggestion for how to improve the DW experience: Create a place on the board where members can publicly comment on moderator and administrator decisions, as well as moderator and administrator conduct. Lift the restrictions on that type of criticism. Open yourselves to public criticism here on this board, from any and all members, even if you think the criticism is unfair. And allow the criticism to stand and be visible when it is made (unless there are compelling reasons not to, such as threats or defamation).

....

Bottom line: If public criticism of moderator and administrator decisions and conduct had been allowed, the blog would have had no reason to exist.
May I ask, briefly... what makes you think that these things you speak of cannot already be done freely by members via the Suggestion Box?

The tagline for that forum has always been "Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen."

Have you ever seen anyone raise a suggestion on how the forum can be improved through the proper channels and be mistreated or suspended for doing so? There's quite an archive of suggestions... you're welcome to rifle through them in search of examples. Your perception that there are some kind of "restrictions" on discussing moderator or admin behaviour is completely mis-founded... the only thing not permitted is to send individual topics off-topic through meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about the discussion or its participants - have a look at the link in the TOS about it if you're interested in more clarification on the downside of in-topic meta-discussion).

Accordingly, I'm wondering if this perceived repression is a prison of your own making, based on some wrong assumptions of what is and is not permissible? I hope so... because that is something we can work together to fix. If you have any doubt or questions, please ask. I have spent much time trying to explain these things to you, and it often feels like banging my head against a brick wall, but if you possess genuine good will in your dealings with me/us (no spin, no lip-service), I will continue to try.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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mikenz66
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:15 am

Dear M.
Mawkish1983 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Nice to see we're back on topic. ;) Mawkish will be pleased.
:) alas, like all things, it was temporary :lol:
So the thing that would most improve your DWE would be for members to stay on topic?

:anjali:
Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:23 am

Jechbi wrote:I'd like to clarify that the blog was never intended to make any misrepresentations, and if it contains any, I hope I have addressed them. If not, I will do so upon specific request. (Tilt, I've changed the wording in the "mindful masturbation" reference. You have persuaded me that I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I apologize for misunderstanding you. I also wish to articulate to you exactly the same apology: It was never my intent to be hurtful to you, but that does not excuse my behavior. By acts of commission and omission, for what I pain I have caused you, I am sorry.)
I accept your apology and your offer of changing of the entries is appreciated. And my offer to talk prvtly still stands, if you feel it is necessary.
Here is my suggestion for how to improve the DW experience: Create a place on the board where members can publicly comment on moderator and administrator decisions, as well as moderator and administrator conduct. Lift the restrictions on that type of criticism. Open yourselves to public criticism here on this board, from any and all members, even if you think the criticism is unfair. And allow the criticism to stand and be visible when it is made (unless there are compelling reasons not to, such as threats or defamation).

If you create such a place on this board, I will take down any parts of the blog that you ask me to, as long as you do not ask me to delete the whole thing. I like some of the non-Dhamma Wheel posts there. Bottom line: If public criticism of moderator and administrator decisions and conduct had been allowed, the blog would have had no reason to exist.
My intial response to something like this is that it tends to vitiates any apology (as above) and that it is a bit "blackmail-ish." I suspect it will, however, be discussed, but honestly after the above statements by the members here, I am not sure it really matters if your blog stays as is or if you opt to change it. I think, however, for all involved changing it, decreasing its negativity, would be the better way to go. We shall see.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:24 am

mikenz66 wrote:Dear M.
Mawkish1983 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Nice to see we're back on topic. ;) Mawkish will be pleased.
:) alas, like all things, it was temporary :lol:
So the thing that would most improve your DWE would be for members to stay on topic?

:anjali:
Mike
How about those Packers?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:How about those Packers?
And speaking of experiences, how about the JHE (may they have all have had fortunate rebirths...)?

Image

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Ben
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Ben » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:34 am

mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How about those Packers?
And speaking of experiences, how about the JHE (may they have all have had fortunate rebirths...)?

Image
Indeed. Back here on earth as human beings in the bosom of a Dhamma-loving family, and not in the Valleys of Neptune.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:37 am

You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ben
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Ben » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.
Oh well, there goes my spanking!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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christopher:::
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by christopher::: » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:57 am

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.
Oh well, there goes my spanking!
Most definitely don't want to have to be around to see that... :tongue:

:focus:
retrofuturist wrote:... the only thing not permitted is to send individual topics off-topic through meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about the discussion or its participants - have a look at the link in the TOS about it if you're interested in more clarification on the downside of in-topic meta-discussion).
I'm probably one who has been quite guilty of meta-discussion. Just as some folks have difficulty understanding why it's not helpful to belittle fellow members i don't quite understand yet how meta-discussion is a major problem.

It's a problem if the topic is avoided for quite awhile but i find a "pulling back" and trying to put things into perspective as quite helpful and refreshing sometimes, just as off-topic humor (such has just been shared) can be quite refreshing.

To return directly to the topic of "how to improve our dhamma wheel experience" i would suggest that a light reminder by mods and fellow members to "return to topic" might be the best way to address both off-topic posts (such as the last few) and meta-discussions.

In other words rather then a violation of the TOS i think such discussion should be simultaneously tolerated and discouraged. Kind of how one would address wandering thoughts during meditation. You don't bring the hammer down when your mind wanders, right? You just gently bring it back to your object of concentration.

At least, that's how i've been doing it.

:jumping: :jedi: --> :meditate:
Last edited by christopher::: on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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retrofuturist
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:00 am

Greetings Chris:::,

Have a look at the aforementioned reference on meta-discussion and see what you make of it... http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for your suggestion regarding how we ought to respond to meta-discussion, we generally do what you suggest, when we're able to get on top of it in time... but alas we are not omniscient and have lives too.

Meta-discussion rarely results in suspension, and as a self-confessed meta-discussionist, you know you've never been warned or suspended for it... so it would take something chronic to yield such action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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christopher:::
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by christopher::: » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Meta-discussion rarely results in suspension, and as a self-confessed meta-discussionist, you know you've never been warned or suspended for it... so it would take something chronic to yield such action.
Cool and... thank you.

:bow:

Okay I looked at the link. Most of the examples I agreed with, but am unsure about...
Suppose that on our hypothetical forum about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, there has been an off-topic object level discussion about the state of biochemistry, and someone complains that that discussion is off-topic and demands that the discussion return to on-topic issues. That complaint is meta-discussion. Instead of being about the issue, it is a comment on a different level – a comment on the issue of what should or should not be posted on the forum. That issue has nothing to do with the state of biochemistry, let alone the book and related issues that the forum is supposed to be about.

Such a comment might be understandable. It might be true. But it would be meta-discussion.
That to me seems like an attempt to get the discussion back on topic, its what mods to all the time, no? For members to be doing that as well can be helpful i would think. It would actually reduce the work of the mods, the community is taking responsibility from my pov, to return everyone's attention to the topic.

But the other examples make good sense.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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retrofuturist
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:18 am

Greetings Chris:::,

Yes, that's one form of meta-discussion (loosely defined) that's fine where appropriate... that's why there's this smiley...

:offtopic:

...and...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by PeterB » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:28 am

One very good way to cut out meta discussion is to have a sub forum where only named people can answer, as they have on ZFI, and which is a huge success. Its a forum on ZFI which is functional and concerned with Buddhism. (!)

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