New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

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Is This Suitable for Vegans?

Yes
7
35%
No
12
60%
I will have to think about that
1
5%
 
Total votes: 20

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adeh
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by adeh »

Gee that turned me off my morning fruit and yogurt.....but aren't vegans vegans because they only eat fruit and vegetables? All the vegans I've ever known wouldn't touch dairy in a pink fit...much less human dairy products...I'm going to be trying to get those images out of my head all day....
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Jhana4 »

adeh wrote:Gee that turned me off my morning fruit and yogurt.....but aren't vegans vegans because they only eat fruit and vegetables?
.

Nope. Vegans are vegans because the word "vegan" was made by Donald Watson in 1944 to refer to a person who believes it is wrong to exploit animals ( use them for our own purposes only ). Obviously, someone can eat a vegan diet without being a vegan --- a person who hold that belief. You get a lot of that kind of confusion with various kinds of health nuts and diet extremists, like raw foodists, incorrectly claiming to be vegans.

Vegans eat many more things than just fruits and vegetables. Check this.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Jhana4 wrote:Vegans are vegans because the word "vegan" was made by Donald Watson in 1944 to refer to a person who believes it is wrong to exploit animals ( use them for our own purposes only ).
That's what I thought too. Of course, women could be exploited too. If this caught on they might be importing human milk from parts of the world where women don't have many rights or easy access to knowledge. Still, I'm a bit surprised at the number of objectors, since in this case the women don't seem to be exploited — its a blameless source of extra income from them working from home.

The Buddha allowed cows' milk specifically, but it seems from the Vibhanga that milk from goats, Yaks, Llamas, etc., would be allowed, but not milk from horses, elephants or humans.
Fresh butter must be made from the milk of any animal whose flesh is allowable.
I don't see any objection on health grounds, except that too much of anything is not a healthy diet. For someone trying to get weaned off a diet of meat and fish, milk and other dairy products would be a healthy source of proteins, calcium, and many other essential nutrients.
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by DNS »

Jhana4 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: It's not that vegans are opposed to just cow milk, but rather to all milk, from any animal, which includes humans. Vegans support nursing for infants, but feel it is not necessary for any animal over the age of about 1 to 2. Humans are the only species that still consumes milk and milk products beyond the age of 1.
Actually, veganism is about ethics and not necessarily about nutrition. Veganism has only been around since 1944 when Donald Watson broke away from the Vegetarian Society Of The UK. He coined the world "vegan" to refer to the ethical belief that it is wrong to exploit animals.
I am sure you are right about the original meaning of the term. But (perhaps incorrectly) since then the term has evolved to mean anyone who doesn't eat meat or animal products even if they don't hold the ethical views. From wikipedia:
Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from the diet only.[1].

The term was coined in England by Donald Watson, who founded the British Vegan Society in 1944, and in 1960 H. Jay Dinshah started the American Vegan Society, linking it to the Jainist and Buddhist concept of ahimsa, the avoidance of violence against living things.[2] It is a small but growing movement. In 2009 one percent of Americans said they were vegan, and in 2007 two percent self-identified as vegan in the UK.[3] The number of vegan restaurants is increasing, and in certain endurance sports—for instance, the Ironman triathlon and the Ultramarathon—the top athletes are vegans.[2]

Well-planned vegan diets have been found to offer protection against obesity, heart and renal diseases, cancer, and rheumatoid arthritis. The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada regard such a diet as appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle, though they caution that poorly planned vegan diets can be deficient in Vitamin B12, iron, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, and omega-3 fatty acids.[4]
Note that people who don't eat animal products (and meat) are also called vegans as well as raw food vegans, who typically are focused on the nutritional reasons only (but not always as some are interested in both the nutrition and ethics).

Personally, I adopted the vegetarian diet for ethical reasons and then as I got older moved more toward a vegan diet for nutritional reasons, but still don't purchase meat for ethical reasons; so my interest is in both ethics and nutrition.
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Ben »

Dear Bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Still, I'm a bit surprised at the number of objectors, since in this case the women don't seem to be exploited — its a blameless source of extra income from them working from home.
Repulsiveness of nutriment.
If this caught on they might be importing human milk from parts of the world where women don't have many rights or easy access to knowledge.
Samsara is filled with dangers.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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adeh
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by adeh »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Still, I'm a bit surprised at the number of objectors, since in this case the women don't seem to be exploited — its a blameless source of extra income from them working from home.
There is a definite yuck factor involved in this though......
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.
But how is this, as a utilisation of technical commentarial term, true of breast-milk ice cream any more than it is of say, something like muesli slice.

...and secondly, how does one separate it from the unwholesome mindstate of aversion?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.
But how is this, as a utilisation of technical commentarial term, true of breast-milk ice cream any more than it is of say, something like muesli slice.
None. human-milk ice-cream is just a more prescient reminder of the repulsiveness of nutriment. It may be a commentarial term, but its in the suttas. Forgive me if I don't provide a reference right now as I am in the thick of it at work.

retrofuturist wrote:...and secondly, how does one separate it from the unwholesome mindstate of aversion?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Repulsiveness of nutriment has nothing to do with aversion and more to do with vipassana "seeing things as they really are".
kind regrds

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Forgive me if I don't provide a reference right now as I am in the thick of it at work.
No worries... I was just keen to understand the context in which you were using the term on the first page, in response to venerable Pesala's post.
Ben wrote:repulsiveness of nutriment. It may be a commentarial term, but its in the suttas.
Are you sure?

I thought this was how it was regarded in the suttas...

SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"

"No, lord."

"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"

"Yes, lord."

"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded.
When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.
I would have thought the focus was more on the functionality of nutriment and dispassion.

Don't feel compelled to rush a response - all in good time. Better to have a good Dhamma conversation than a quick one. :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by nobody12345 »

I have to retract my support.
I did not read the article but misunderstood that the Ice-cream is one of the new breeds from Trader Joes and Whole foods market.I have just read the entire article.
I don't eat any dessert but even if I eat Ice-cream or dessert, I would not touch it.
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Surprised no-one brought up Tofutti as an alternative:

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M-4
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.
All physical food can be contemplated as repulsive, whether it is meat, fish, milk, beans, or rice.
The fact that the idea of ice-cream from human milk is yucky doesn't make it unsuitable for Vegans.

A good Buddhist should be able to see beyond external appearances and habitual perceptions — eating just for the sake of nutrition.

I heard that long ago, when Ajahn Sucitto was the abbot at Harnham Vihāra, the monks were getting too picky about their food, so he instituted "the bucket practice."

All almsfood was mixed in a bucket, stirred up with a wood spatula, and the monks could take as much as they wanted. Rice, curry, cake, ice-cream, whatever, it all went into the bucket.
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by Ben »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.
All physical food can be contemplated as repulsive, whether it is meat, fish, milk, beans, or rice.
The fact that the idea of ice-cream from human milk is yucky doesn't make it unsuitable for Vegans.

A good Buddhist should be able to see beyond external appearances and habitual perceptions — eating just for the sake of nutrition.
Yes Bhante, I believe that is consistent with what I was saying.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I heard that long ago, when Ajahn Sucitto was the abbot at Harnham Vihāra, the monks were getting too picky about their food, so he instituted "the bucket practice."

All almsfood was mixed in a bucket, stirred up with a wood spatula, and the monks could take as much as they wanted. Rice, curry, cake, ice-cream, whatever, it all went into the bucket.
Yes, we have a very similar meal here at the Outdoor Education campus where I work. For the Year 8 programs, one lunch is a 'bucket lunch', into which everything is tipped and mixed. Perhaps because of the physical nature of the program and that most of the kids don't see what goes into it, the kids love it.
Retro wrote: I would have thought the focus was more on the functionality of nutriment and dispassion.
Don't feel compelled to rush a response - all in good time. Better to have a good Dhamma conversation than a quick one.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, very busy at our annual working bee and ironically, catering. Currently taking a break in a very busy weekend schedule.
Repulsiveness of nutriment, which does allow practitioners to develop wisdom into the reality of food for what it is, free from the overlay of our own craving and aversion-fuelled perceptions and sankharas, does also has the effect of causing one to utilise food for its functional value and the development dispassion. Dispassion is a product of vipassana.
Anyway, back to the cooking...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by cooran »

Metta-4 wrote:Surprised no-one brought up Tofutti as an alternative:

M-4
Hello Metta-4,

The discussion is about human female's breast milk and our opinions of its being 'harvested' and sold as flavoured ice-cream.
(I think we're all aware of non-milk alternatives).

What do you think?

with metta
Chris
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Re: New Kind of Ice-cream for Vegans

Post by octathlon »

It certainly evokes a feeling of disgust in me. Kind of has a "cannibalistic" touch to it.
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