Retro, Mike,
Most of the time, it would seem to me, that the meaning of "the All" is a more restricted meaning, one that is confined just to what can be experienced by the senses. However, in the cited refutation, the Buddha seemed to be saying in being fully enlightened in regard to all things, "all things" here included things that are beyond the range of those who made the cited accusation. Would this be your understanding or would "the All" here be the one with the restricted meaning. Whichever is your understanding, I would like to know your reasons for it.
SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Hi Sherab,
Is "all things" the same, or a related, Pali term as "the all"?
Mike
Is "all things" the same, or a related, Pali term as "the all"?
Mike
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Greetings Sherab,
You'll note the sutta extract you provide says "in accordance with the Dhamma"...
Others could accuse him of not knowing various ontological, cosmological or metaphysical speculations, if that's the kind of thing you're getting at... but such papanca is not "in accordance with the Dhamma" as the statements or propositions they relate to are beyond range. The Buddha knows "the all", as it is in the Dhamma. In the Dhamma, such papanca is just intellect & ideas... and the Buddha knows intellect & ideas.
To wit, I think when people project god-like omniscience onto the Buddha, they do so without an appreciation for the qualifications the Buddha gave on that which could be directly known.
Comprehending the all as defined by the Buddha helps, in a very real and practical sense to not crave for "things", because all things, as experienced, as just more fodder vis-a-vis "the all", much like the examples I gave earlier of the tree, or the singing bird. The Buddha's instructions to Bahiya in the Bahiya Sutta explain how this ought be done.
All formed "things" (sankhata dhamma) are simply the product of ignorance. Referring once more to the Nanananda interview above...
Metta,
Retro.
You'll note the sutta extract you provide says "in accordance with the Dhamma"...
Others could accuse him of not knowing various ontological, cosmological or metaphysical speculations, if that's the kind of thing you're getting at... but such papanca is not "in accordance with the Dhamma" as the statements or propositions they relate to are beyond range. The Buddha knows "the all", as it is in the Dhamma. In the Dhamma, such papanca is just intellect & ideas... and the Buddha knows intellect & ideas.
To wit, I think when people project god-like omniscience onto the Buddha, they do so without an appreciation for the qualifications the Buddha gave on that which could be directly known.
Comprehending the all as defined by the Buddha helps, in a very real and practical sense to not crave for "things", because all things, as experienced, as just more fodder vis-a-vis "the all", much like the examples I gave earlier of the tree, or the singing bird. The Buddha's instructions to Bahiya in the Bahiya Sutta explain how this ought be done.
All formed "things" (sankhata dhamma) are simply the product of ignorance. Referring once more to the Nanananda interview above...
Speaking in relation to the classic Phena Sutta, but very much continuing this point, he says...“One has to ask: why did the Buddha say ‘manopubbaṇgamā dhammā, manoseṭṭhā manomayā’ (Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought – Dhp 1)? One has to admit that the Dhamma is mano-mūlika. But again, the mind is just one of the senses. What we have here is just a self-created problem. We discussed how existence is a perversion. The arising of dhammas is also the arising of dukkha. Not realizing this, some go looking for the truth among ‘things’.
“The search goes on because of delusion, and it is fruitless because they are chasing illusions. Dhammas, things, are all fabricated. They are all relative. They are all results of maññanā (ideation). Just as those who were entrenched in self-view saw the Buddha as a nihilist, those who are entrenched in materialism cannot grasp the Buddhist philosophy
C'est la vie.The sutta is a wonderful revelation about what we take as a ‘thing’. It is not something existing on its own in the world but a result of many psychological causes. But when we say that, we are accused of being viññāṇavādins and suññatavādins
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
See also this discussion: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7345" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Mike
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Ok great, thanks for this one Mike.
So is this sutta saying
1) "there isn't anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
2) "it isn't possible to experience anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
3) It isn't possible to describe anything beyond the six senses and their objects?
Just reading it as literally as possible, I see it saying #3, not the former. And if it is saying the former, then how does it not run head on into "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana? I mean, he certainly wasn't saying the six senses and their objects are eternal. And surely he wasn't saying it's not possible to experience "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana.
So is this sutta saying
1) "there isn't anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
2) "it isn't possible to experience anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
3) It isn't possible to describe anything beyond the six senses and their objects?
Just reading it as literally as possible, I see it saying #3, not the former. And if it is saying the former, then how does it not run head on into "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana? I mean, he certainly wasn't saying the six senses and their objects are eternal. And surely he wasn't saying it's not possible to experience "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Greetings Kirk,
Interesting thoughts.
Regarding "consciousness without feature", could this be intellect without object?
Metta,
Retro.
Interesting thoughts.
Regarding "consciousness without feature", could this be intellect without object?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Of course. But what does it mean? The Buddha couldn't be referring to those who subscribe to his Dhamma. If he did, he was merely preaching to the converted. If he was referring to those recluse etc. who don't subscribe to his Dhamma, then the Buddha was merely setting up the playing field to ensure that he could not lose. Do you think the Buddha intended this?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sherab,
You'll note the sutta extract you provide says "in accordance with the Dhamma"...
You may be interested to know that I consider omniscience to be like omnipotence - logically impossible.retrofuturist wrote: To wit, I think when people project god-like omniscience onto the Buddha, they do so without an appreciation for the qualifications the Buddha gave on that which could be directly known.
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Greetings Sherab,
Based on a review of the suttas it is evident that the Buddha often either rejected questions because they were incorrectly framed, or provided Dhammic meanings or twists to words which may have had slightly different meanings in general society or in other contempory religions.
The Sabba Sutta is such an instance of the Buddha rephrasing a term "sabba" (all) used by other religionists so that it accorded with Dhamma.
Metta,
Retro.
I believe he was reframing it according to truth (Dhamma).Sherab wrote:Of course. But what does it mean? The Buddha couldn't be referring to those who subscribe to his Dhamma. If he did, he was merely preaching to the converted. If he was referring to those recluse etc. who don't subscribe to his Dhamma, then the Buddha was merely setting up the playing field to ensure that he could not lose. Do you think the Buddha intended this?
Based on a review of the suttas it is evident that the Buddha often either rejected questions because they were incorrectly framed, or provided Dhammic meanings or twists to words which may have had slightly different meanings in general society or in other contempory religions.
The Sabba Sutta is such an instance of the Buddha rephrasing a term "sabba" (all) used by other religionists so that it accorded with Dhamma.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
How was "sabba" (all) used by other religionists?retrofuturist wrote: The Sabba Sutta is such an instance of the Buddha rephrasing a term "sabba" (all) used by other religionists so that it accorded with Dhamma.
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Hi Retroretrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,
Interesting thoughts.
Regarding "consciousness without feature", could this be intellect without object?
Metta,
Retro.
Well, I'm not going to be able to shed much light on "consciousness without feature" myself, not having "experienced" it, and certainly not being a scholarly expert on that. But, what would "intellect without object" be? Eye without object would just occur in total darkness. So I suppose the parallel for intellect would just be no thoughts?
As regards this sutta "The All" all I know is that the Buddha did talk about this "consciousness without feature" a little bit here and there, and so it would seem to present a difficulty in interpreting "The All" as meaning - there is nothing else besides the 6 sense and their objects. Or so it seems to me, but I'm always open to having misunderstood
Wouldn't that fit with what Sariputta says in the Kotthita Sutta?
[Maha Kotthita:] "With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?"
[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
And then the venerable Sāriputta goes on to say:kirk5a wrote:As regards this sutta "The All" all I know is that the Buddha did talk about this "consciousness without feature" a little bit here and there, and so it would seem to present a difficulty in interpreting "The All" as meaning - there is nothing else besides the 6 sense and their objects. Or so it seems to me, but I'm always open to having misunderstood
Wouldn't that fit with what Sariputta says in the Kotthita Sutta?
[Maha Kotthita:] "With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?"
[Sariputta:] "Don't say that, my friend."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This so-called "consciousness without feature" (as it is translated in here) is just a state where no one would be able to find any description for... since there are no objects that we can "stick" onto it, so to speak. That is why no one can ever measure a Tathāgata... even not another Tathāgata can.The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
Last edited by beeblebrox on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Sounds good beeblebrox (are u related to Zaphod?)
So then what's the right way to read this sutta "The All" as you see it? Which of my 3 earlier interpretations? Or another one.
So then what's the right way to read this sutta "The All" as you see it? Which of my 3 earlier interpretations? Or another one.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Very distantly related. This is Greg.kirk5a wrote:Sounds good beeblebrox (are u related to Zaphod?)
At first, I thought it was likely the third one:So then what's the right way to read this sutta "The All" as you see it? Which of my 3 earlier interpretations? Or another one.
And then it occurred to me: it's really none of the above... and not even this, since this would be objectifying too, leading to dukkha. The mind boggles... truly.kirk5a wrote: So is this sutta saying
1) "there isn't anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
2) "it isn't possible to experience anything other than the six senses and their objects" ?
OR
3) It isn't possible to describe anything beyond the six senses and their objects?
Just reading it as literally as possible, I see it saying #3, not the former. And if it is saying the former, then how does it not run head on into "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana? I mean, he certainly wasn't saying the six senses and their objects are eternal. And surely he wasn't saying it's not possible to experience "consciousness without feature" and/or nibbana.
Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Ok. So then, what might be the practical application of this sutta for us mere mortals? Does it help our practice somehow? Or is it just another thing to put on the "mind boggling" shelf sigh... lolbeeblebrox wrote:
And then it occurred to me: it's really none of the above... and not even this, since this would be objectifying too. The mind boggles... truly.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
My mind hasn't recovered from the boggling yet... so might be a while before I can come up with an answer.kirk5a wrote:So then, what might be the practical application of this sutta for us mere mortals? Does it help our practice somehow? Or is it just another thing to put on the "mind boggling" shelf sigh... lol