Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

An interesting video from venerable Vimalaramsi on..

How the Visuddhi Magga and the Abhidhamma has influenced the Buddha's Teachings


It goes some way to explaining why some people may legitimately prefer a suttanta method of meditation over that of one based upon post-Buddha teachings. Frankly, I find it refreshing to see a monk have the courage to defend the primacy of the Buddha's teaching, against the traditional backdrop of accumulated post-Buddha perspectives.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Well, we have had a thread on this guy earlier on. He is no more attractive now than he was then. I'll look elsewhere for my Dhamma teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20130
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:01 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Well, we have had a thread on this guy earlier on. He no more attractive now than he was then. I'll look elsewhere for my Dhamma teraching.
In the video, he actually says something to the effect that he doesn't want you to believe him - he wants you to believe your own experience. I see him as someone pointing in a direction, encouraging self-discovery, rather than giving direct teaching or instruction.

Whatever this person may have said in regards to other issues, I think what he says on the subject at hand is valuable, namely how the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma have influenced the Buddha's Teachings (and specifically here in terms of meditation), as they are presented to us today.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
Posts: 3093
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by alan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:37 am

I loved it. Maybe because attempts at understanding Visuddhimagga have always left me more perplexed than enlightened... and maybe because after reading the suttas I don't see the need for adding unnecessarily complex levels of interpretation.

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by legolas » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:40 am

It was Bhante Vimalaramsi who helped me escape the person I had become via "vipassana". Numerous 10 day courses, although initially enticing had turned me into an unthinking, hard-hearted individual who was gradually losing all sense of the joy and wonder of the Dhamma - which is what attracted me to it in the first place. There is more between heaven & earth than bare attention & observing sensations, and Bhante Vimalaramsi is one of the few monks who actually teach what that is. If we want to hang around waiting for the "perfect" monk as a teacher, we might have a long wait. All I know is that Bhante's teachings resonate with the suttas, introduce clear guidelines for practice which find verification in the suttas, and most importantly they work.

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by kirk5a » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:31 am

O.K. Well that clears up a lot of things for me. Thanks for posting that video.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Whatever this person may have said in regards to other issues, I think what he says on the subject at hand is valuable, namely how the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma have influenced the Buddha's Teachings (and specifically here in terms of meditation), as they are presented to us today.
My point would be that others have said it better without the baggage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by legolas » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Whatever this person may have said in regards to other issues, I think what he says on the subject at hand is valuable, namely how the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma have influenced the Buddha's Teachings (and specifically here in terms of meditation), as they are presented to us today.
My point would be that others have said it better without the baggage.
Who has said it better? What is the baggage?

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:16 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Whatever this person may have said in regards to other issues, I think what he says on the subject at hand is valuable, namely how the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma have influenced the Buddha's Teachings (and specifically here in terms of meditation), as they are presented to us today.
My point would be that others have said it better without the baggage.
Who has said it better? What is the baggage?
Ven Nanananda and the baggage of Ven V's name dropping in his rather dodgy personal history.

And this eye-roller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rkJnFzTRIY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:25 am

legolas wrote: Who has said it better? What is the baggage?
Contrary to some of the statements in the talk, there are a number of Bhikkhus who discuss what they think that the Suttas actually teach. They (including Bhante Vimalaramsi) appear to have come to rather different conclusions about how the Sutta-Vinaya should be interpreted, as you can see from discussions on this Forum.

To mention a few obvious people:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Ajahn Brahm, Bhikkhu Nanananda...

As far as I can see, in the end it comes down to deciding whose advice you trust, whether you make that decision consciously or not. Personally I don't see in the black and white terms of the talk: "this is right, all the rest are wrong". I actually think that there a number of excellent teachers and approaches that make various use of Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidamma, and Commentary, that suit different people, or the same people at different times. I base that statement on my conversations with people I've met over the years.

:anjali:
Mike

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by Sylvester » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:34 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote: Who has said it better? What is the baggage?
Contrary to some of the statements in the talk, there are a number of Bhikkhus who discuss what they think that the Suttas actually teach. They (including Bhante Vimalaramsi) appear to have come to rather different conclusions about how the Sutta-Vinaya should be interpreted, as you can see from discussions on this Forum.

To mention a few obvious people:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Ajahn Brahm, Bhikkhu Nanananda...

As far as I can see, in the end it comes down to deciding whose advice you trust, whether you make that decision consciously or not. Personally I don't see in the black and white terms of the talk: "this is right, all the rest are wrong". I actually think that there a number of excellent teachers and approaches that make various use of Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidamma, and Commentary, that suit different people, or the same people at different times. I base that statement on my conversations with people I've met over the years.

:anjali:
Mike
Good for you! You've escaped the clutches of idamsaccabhinivesa gantha. :clap:

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by legolas » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ven Nanananda and the baggage of Ven V's naming dropping in his rather dodgy personal history.

And this eye-roller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rkJnFzTRIY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re : Ven Nanananda, could you reference to his teachings that relate to the subjects that Bhante Vimalaramsi's video dealt with.

Thanks

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:52 am

Sylvester wrote: Good for you! You've escaped the clutches of idamsaccabhinivesa gantha. :clap:
Hmm, that's a big word... :tongue:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/18251" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4 ties, ganthas - the bodily tie (kayagantha), covetousness
(abhijjha), ill-will (vyapada), clinging to rule and ritual
(silabbata-paramasa), of dogmatical fanaticism (idamsaccabhinivesa)
:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:57 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ven Nanananda and the baggage of Ven V's naming dropping in his rather dodgy personal history.

And this eye-roller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rkJnFzTRIY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re : Ven Nanananda, could you reference to his teachings that relate to the subjects that Bhante Vimalaramsi's video dealt with.

Thanks
You mean the origins of the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhimagga?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by legolas » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ven Nanananda and the baggage of Ven V's naming dropping in his rather dodgy personal history.

And this eye-roller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rkJnFzTRIY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re : Ven Nanananda, could you reference to his teachings that relate to the subjects that Bhante Vimalaramsi's video dealt with.

Thanks
You mean the origins of the Abhidhamma and the Visuddhimagga?
Yes, but also the subjugation of the suttas in their favour and the meditation practices that derived from them. These were the topics covered by the video, and I am interested in reading another monk make similar points (only better).

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:21 am

legolas wrote: Yes, but also the subjugation of the suttas in their favour and the meditation practices that derived from them. These were the topics covered by the video, and I am interested in reading another monk make similar points (only better).
There are historical studies out there that look at this sort of thing in terms. Did he, in the video, which I gave up on fairly early, talk about how in 15 years after the VM was penned other monks tried to stop its spread?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot], seeker242 and 99 guests