Buddhism and Abortion.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by jcsuperstar »

When Life Begins

Bhikkhu Sujato


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The sanctity of life is the core of our moral consciousness. But ‘life’ has fuzzy edges. It is no easy matter to define precisely where life, in the moral rather than biological sense, begins and ends. For Buddhism this fuzziness is normal, for we are accustomed to view the world in terms of interrelated processes rather than independent entities. Yet our need for clarity in deciding delicate moral questions is no less. In this essay I will analyze some strands of the debate on the inception of life and the ethics of abortion. I will suggest that a Buddhist approach provides us with useful tools that can steer away from moral extremism and focus on a compassionate response to the real issues. For the sake of brevity I will limit my discussion to the ethics of abortion. However we should recognize that many other procedures, such as IVF, cloning, genetic engineering, and stem-cell technology also involve the destruction of embryos.
Discussion of the ethics of abortion has generally, I believe, been dominated by two extremist positions. These are identified by the slogans ‘Life’ and ‘Choice’. In Buddhist thought these ideas are called ‘eternalism’ and ‘annihilationism’. The word ‘eternalism’ refers to the belief that the self exists eternally. The word ‘annihilationism’ refers to the belief that the self will perish, usually at death. In this essay I will focus on some influential streams of thought within Christianity and scientific materialism as prominent contemporary examples of these two extremes.

The Eternal Soul and the Sanctity of Life

Christians typically believe that each human possesses a ‘soul’. This is a spiritual entity, a spark of the life of God, which distinguishes humans from all other beings, and grants humans a unique ethical value. It is because humans possess a soul that the deliberate killing of a human being, usually called ‘murder’, is such a terrible crime. This soul enters the embryo at the moment of conception. From that point on, the embryo is in the moral sense a fully-fledged human being, deserving of the same moral consideration as you and I. To kill such a being is murder.

Labeling abortion as ‘murder’ is a highly emotive strategy, and has led to ugly scenes where women who wished to have abortions were harassed and abused. The use of the label stems from the simple definition of ‘murder’ as ‘the intentional killing of a human being’. If an embryo is a human being, to kill it must be murder. However the concept of ‘murder’ is not so cut and dried. There are many instances of ‘intentional killing of a human being’ that we do not call ‘murder’. When one soldier kills another in wartime we just call it ‘killing’, not murder. When a state kills a criminal we call it ‘execution’. When a person kills themselves we call it ‘suicide’. So labeling abortion as ‘murder’ is absolutist and simplistic. It begs the question as to whether abortion is intentional killing of a human being in the relevant sense. The assertion that abortion is murder rests on a metaphysical theory, and as such is inherently unprovable. The acceptance of this theory is dependent on faith in revealed dogmas as defined within a particular religious community, and has no relevance outside that community.

The Emergence of Consciousness

As we all know, recent years have seen most societies move rapidly away from eternalist viewpoints such as Christianity towards the annihilationist perspective of scientific materialism. It has become the new orthodoxy. While the eternalists derive our moral value from the possession of a soul, the materialists typically relate moral value to consciousness. We deserve ethical consideration because we are conscious beings. So the question then becomes, when does consciousness arise?

Materialists believe that the primary substance that makes up the world is matter. In the right conditions, matter can evolve into the complex organisms that we call ‘life’. At a certain level of complexity consciousness emerges. Consciousness is thus regarded as an ‘epiphenomenon’ of matter. Many materialists believe that this consciousness arises in the embryo in the third or fourth month of pregnancy. Since our moral worth derives from this consciousness, it is believed that for the first three months the embryo is merely a piece of meat deserving of no moral consideration.

This process can be compared with the picture on the screen of a television set. The individual parts do not contain even a little bit of the picture. Rather, the picture appears in total when the parts are put together. It’s a compelling metaphor – but a misleading one. In the case of a television set, the parts are made separately and then put together. But in the case of a living being our different parts unfold from the genetic information contained in the DNA. Each cell includes the total genetic information for the body. So it would seem more natural to speak of a gradual unfolding of the inherent potential of consciousness. Moreover, in the case of a television set the causality is one-way. The television set causes the picture but the picture doesn’t cause the television set. Again the analogy falls flat, because in all ordinary states of consciousness the body and the mind co-exist in a complex two-way relationship. The effectiveness of the analogy stems from the underlying assumption that there is a linear, one-way causality from the brain to the mind. But that is the very question we are asking.

When we ask why the materialists believe that consciousness is an emergent property of matter, we can see that this conclusion follows from the assumptions of scientific methodology itself. Scientists will generally only accept evidence if it can be ‘objectively’ proven and tested. But there can be no such thing as ‘objective’ proof, for the acceptance or rejection of a proof are mental acts, and mental events are necessarily subjective. In practice we settle for an ‘intersubjective acquiescence’; that is, when there is sufficient evidence, observable through the five external senses, to convince a certain scientific community. Scientific method is thus unable, at present, to directly investigate the mind. All it can do is examine externally observable phenomena, such as behavior and brain activity, and then infer correlations with the mental realm. So it comes as no surprise to find that the scientific theory of consciousness also starts with the physical realm and sees consciousness emerging from that. This theory is embodied in the assumptions of scientific method and therefore cannot be tested by that method. It is not an empirically falsifiable conclusion, and hence is unscientific. It is a metaphysical speculation, an unwarranted inference derived from the assumption that scientific method is the sole and sufficient means of uncovering truth.

Avoiding the Extremes

These two paradigms for approaching the question of the moral status of the embryo are extremes. The eternalists hold that abortion is murder; the most heinous of crimes, while the annihilationists hold that it is of no moral consequence whatsoever. We can see that the two extremes each offer a simple, clear framework for understanding the ethics of abortion. This is why they remain powerful and attractive ideas. We can also see that the conclusions are counter-intuitive. Many of us feel that an embryo is deserving of moral consideration, yet we would hesitate to equate abortion with murder. This is an example of how absolutist philosophical positions generate moral extremism. In practice, we typically settle for an uneasy compromise between the two. This is no true ‘middle way’ but is a political expedient driven by social necessity. Unfortunately, the debate is usually conducted on the level of moral convictions and scientific evidence without addressing the underlying metaphysical assumptions. Too often we balk at subjecting our most deeply cherished beliefs, whether scientific or religious, to a searching inquiry.

What can Buddhism offer us in this regard? Since Buddhism is a historical religion, we should begin by asking what the earliest records of the Buddha’s teachings have to say. This is one way of grounding our discussion in deeper strata of our moral consciousness, not allowing ourselves to be swept away by the tides of contemporary opinion. Of course, we must still be prepared to subject the traditional understanding to scrutiny in the light of modern evidence.

The Pali canon contains several passages dealing with the process of conception in the womb and the advent of consciousness. The Maha Tanhasankhaya Sutta states that conception is dependent on the coming together of three things: the mother and father come together; the mother is fertile; and the being to be reborn is ready. The term ‘coming together’ means ‘same place, same time’. Thus this passage implies that consciousness appears at the time of conception. The Maha Nidana Sutta is even clearer. It states that if consciousness does not enter the mother’s womb, mentality & physical form cannot ‘coagulate’ inside the womb. In yet another passage, conception is said to depend on the ‘six elements’, including consciousness. All of these statements occur in discussions of the key doctrine of dependent origination and thus carry great authority. In the monastic Vinaya, too, the appearance of the embryo is equated with the arising of the ‘first mind, the first consciousness’ in the mother’s womb. Thus all of these contexts treat conception as involving a combination of mental and physical factors, with the mental factors primary. This of course reflects the basic philosophy of Buddhism that mind is the forerunner of all things.

So the texts state that consciousness is present from the inception of life. A being who is conscious can feel pain, and therefore deserves moral consideration. It goes without saying, however, that the ability of a newly conceived embryo to feel pain is very rudimentary, perhaps comparable to someone in a deep coma or under a deep anaesthetic. According to Buddhism these are states of consciousness, but too dim to be noticed when compared with the glare of waking consciousness. The texts frequently speak of the ‘growth, increase, and maturing’ of the newly reborn consciousness. In accordance with the findings of science, the texts speak of the gradual development of the embryo’s sense faculties. But unlike the scientists, they do not assume that consciousness does not appear until the senses develop. So while the embryo certainly deserves moral consideration, its limited capacity to feel pain means that killing an embryo falls short of ‘murder’.

There is clear support for this conclusion in the Vinaya. This states that a monk or nun should never, for the whole of their life, intentionally kill a human being, ‘even to the extent of causing an abortion’. Similarly, they should not have sexual intercourse ‘even to the depth of a sesame seed’. They should not steal ‘even as much as a blade of grass’. They should not lay claim to spiritual attainments ‘even by saying "I delight in an empty dwelling"’. So abortion is clearly regarded as intentional killing of a human being; yet it is the least serious act of this kind.

So the Buddhist texts pertaining to abortion provide a classic model for a ‘middle way’, which accepts some of the propositions of the extreme views, while avoiding their absolutist and simplistic conclusions. Together with the eternalists we believe that an embryo from the time of conception is endowed with a non-physical property that entitles them to moral consideration. However we do not accept that this principle is a spiritual entity, a spark of God’s glory; nor do we accept that this supposed ‘soul’ is a unique distinguishing feature of humanity. We believe that it is a conditioned stream of consciousness, ever changing and evolving as it passes from life to life. Together with the annihilationists we believe that the weight of moral consideration due to an embryo is not static, but gradually increases with the development of the embryo’s mind towards full awareness. However we do not accept that it can be proved that the inception of consciousness takes place only after three or four months. This is an ethically arbitrary date which simply marks the present day limits of scientific knowledge, but tells us nothing about the moral status of the embryo.

Why Believe in Rebirth?

So much for the textual and theoretical side. These considerations, of course, are only of direct relevance to the Buddhist community. Is there any way of empirically checking these ideas? According to Buddhism there two means – through direct observation of the process of rebirth, and through inferential understanding of the conditioned evolution of consciousness in time. Direct observation is the psychic power to recollect past lives, or else to perceive where beings are reborn. It seems that these abilities, which are normally said to be the fruit of deep meditation, can in some people occur spontaneously. Children below the age of seven seem to often be able to recollect details of their past life and death. Obviously these abilities are not generally accepted in the scientific community. But there would seem to be no theoretical obstacle to scientific tests of such claims. For example, a number of different people who professed such powers could be asked some questions, and the answers could be checked against each other. Or else historical data could be extracted which could be checked against known records. There have already been a number of positive experiments along these lines, although I do not know if they have any direct bearing on the question of the inception of consciousness. In any case, if accurate and testable information can be obtained through such psychic powers, it would seem reasonable to grant them a degree of credibility.

According to Buddhism, the second way of confirming rebirth is through understanding the conditioned origination of consciousness. We repeatedly contemplate the arising and passing of consciousness in the present moment. We see how selfish desires give rise to mental proliferation, and how letting go leads to peace. We extend this principle to the past and the future, and infer that our consciousness in this life arose because of craving in the past, and that as long as we do not completely let go, we will continue to generate consciousness in the future. This kind of understanding says nothing of the specific details of past lives, so cannot be tested by any simple empirical means. But we can ask whether dependent origination offers a meaningful and useful framework for dealing with the kinds of psychological issues we face today. If the answer is yes, then again we should grant this teaching a degree of credibility.

For Buddhists, however, such proofs remain secondary. Most Buddhists believe in rebirth because it is an intrinsic strand in the fabric of their world. They accept the world-view of Buddhism because they believe it is beneficial for themselves and their society. The teachings form a coherent and rational whole. So when they see the more basic ethical teachings confirmed in their own lives, they are willing to take the more abstract tenets on trust. They would no more think of empirically testing such tenets than you or I would think of empirically testing the Theory of Relativity. We accept the Theory of Relativity – insofar as we understand it at all – because of our faith in science. These days there are many people all over the world, Buddhists and non-Buddhists, who believe in rebirth. It is likely that their numbers will increase as Buddhism becomes recognized as offering a meaningful and satisfying way of living and dying.

The Social Dimension

The primary concern of this essay has been to investigate the philosophical basis for a Buddhist ethic of abortion. However I may perhaps be forgiven for venturing out of my sphere of competence so far as to offer some thoughts regarding the social dimension of this ethic. It is apparent that in many countries abortion has been technically illegal, yet unofficially sanctioned and widespread. We should understand that Buddhists do not generally accept that if something is wrong it must necessarily be made illegal. Such matters must be considered in their social context. Making abortion illegal makes criminals out of women who may often be going through a traumatic experience. And it leaves the market wide-open to unscrupulous practitioners

I would suggest that a more humane approach would be to make abortion and other such technologies legal, but very closely monitored. We must ensure that we, and our sons and daughters, are provided with all the information, guidance, and support we need to enable us to make such life and death decisions responsibly. Children should be given explicit and thorough education at school in the relevant biological, sexual, ethical, and religious issues. When a woman seeks an abortion, she and the father should be provided with detailed information and personal counseling before making the final decision. Our society must accept that addressing the issue of abortion involves not just making moral judgements and providing medical services, but also education in contraception and in responsible relationships. We must offer women a meaningful alternative through adequate child support and social services.

One implication of the gradualist approach to this question is that the moral gravity and kammic consequences of carrying out an abortion will increase each day as the pregnancy continues. Thus it is imperative that we read, discuss, and think about the issues before an unwanted pregnancy occurs. This will hopefully help us to act more responsibly, to consider the issues with a clearer mind, and to make a mature, reasoned decision without undue delay.

Even those who believe that abortion is merely a surgical procedure must acknowledge that on the emotional level abortion is quite different from other medical procedures. Many women feel that a child has come to them, that a special being has chosen their body to grow into new life, and they have thrust it away. If the mother decides to have an abortion, there should be close support and monitoring of her emotional health after the operation. To help heal any emotional wounds we can encourage the mother to ask forgiveness from the being who chose to be her child, to spread loving kindness, and to undertake some positive, healing acts of generosity and helping others.

I would very much like to see a study of the effects of abortion on the emotional landscapes of women, and a comparison between women who decided to have an abortion and women who had unwanted pregnancies but decided to bear a child. How do they feel afterwards? Five years later? Ten years later? How many mothers would, when their child had grown up, say that they wished they had had an abortion?

Living Wisdom, Choosing Compassion

So in this essay I have attempted to sketch an outline of a Buddhist approach to abortion. I examined some of the prevailing arguments and concluded that the polarization of positions into ‘Life’ and ‘Choice’ can be traced back to incompatible philosophical paradigms, such as the eternalist viewpoint of the Christians and the annihilationism of the scientific materialists. Buddhism offers a middle way that treasures the sanctity of the life in the mother’s womb from the time of conception, yet recognizes a gradual growth in the moral gravity of the act of killing. On the practical side, we must employ the twin virtues of compassion and wisdom, providing care and support for mothers and children, and ensuring the parents are provided with the information and advice they need to make a mature decision. I would like to finish with a verse from the Mangala Sutta:

Service to mother and father
Cherishing of spouse and child
Ways of work without conflict
This is the highest blessing.

-ooOoo-
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by green »

I agree, killing is killing...Buddhism is not pro-abortion in any way.

That being said, thank goodness Buddhists don't excommunicate because of this...one should not abandon those who are suffering.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:it is not a matter of principles I think are relevant and force on every situation but a matter of what is best in the situation that is present.
I wonder if you have any support from the Buddhist teachings for this stance? Any instance of the Buddha praising a violation of the precepts because of this or that difficult situation?
I think means I think not this is what the teachings say. but I am sure the Buddha or any Arahant would act appropriately for the situation they meet, look at the story related to verse 1 or 2 of the Dhammapada about the blind walking mediator. or the fact that the minor monastic rules can be changed to meet circumstances, it is not about obeying the rules but about knowing when to break them.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:look at the story related to verse 1 or 2 of the Dhammapada about the blind walking mediator.
What about it? That monk didn't violate any rules.
- Peter

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by cooran »

Hello jc, all,

With respect to Bhikkhu Sujato, I think that he is either unfamiliar with the sex lives of lay people of all religious persuasions, or is somewhat inexperienced or naive about relationships and children.
Bhikkhu Sujato says, "When a woman seeks an abortion, she and the father should be provided with detailed information and personal counseling before making the final decision. Our society must accept that addressing the issue of abortion involves not just making moral judgements and providing medical services, but also education in contraception and in responsible relationships. We must offer women a meaningful alternative through adequate child support and social services."

In cases where a woman is considering an abortion, the woman doesn't want it generally known that she is pregnant, very often the 'father' is unknown (one night stand, was drunk, or is one of multiple sexual partners) or has disclaimed responsibility. If the woman knows or is prepared to disclose the father, he may no longer be in a relationship with the woman, his whereabouts may be unknown, doesn't want it known that he is the father, or doesn't intend to continue seeing her. Many pregnancies are the result of rape or incest, or occur where both parents are very young teenagers.

I wonder what Bhikkhu Sujato's suggestion would be when the father of the baby has a different opinion about the necessity for abortion than the woman carrying the foetus?
If there is disagreement, whose opinion prevails?
The woman wants an abortion, and the male doesn't ... is she forced to carry the baby to term and care for it for 18 years because of someone else's opinion .... someone who can 'do a flit' whenever the going gets tough?
The male wants an abortion and the woman doesn't ... whose opinion prevails?
I doubt that the good Bhikkhu is aware of the waiting lists for counselling - and each days' delay adds to the age of the foetus.

metta
Chris

Bhikkhu Sujato lives in Australia, 2 hours from Sydney. Australia has more than adequate child support and social services. Women can obtain safe medical abortions on demand through many specialised abortion clinics - complete with counselling, if the foetus is below 19 weeks and 6 days gestation.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:look at the story related to verse 1 or 2 of the Dhammapada about the blind walking mediator.
What about it? That monk didn't violate any rules.
but did those who knew about it break them by not telling him? each case is individual and can not be judged with a blanket rule. the lay precepts are not commandments they are guides, or suggestions, which we aim not to do in our day to day goings on, but in certain circumstances these choices need made.
I would no sooner like to be a man who has to decide who dies his wife or child, to save one, or loose both, than I would like to have to make any decision which affects the life of others, abortion or not, but unfortunately these decisions have to be made sometimes.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by SeerObserver »

Chris wrote:Hello jc, all,

With respect to Bhikkhu Sujato, I think that he is either unfamiliar with the sex lives of lay people of all religious persuasions, or is somewhat inexperienced or naive about relationships and children.
Bhikkhu Sujato says, "When a woman seeks an abortion, she and the father should be provided with detailed information and personal counseling before making the final decision. Our society must accept that addressing the issue of abortion involves not just making moral judgements and providing medical services, but also education in contraception and in responsible relationships. We must offer women a meaningful alternative through adequate child support and social services."

In cases where a woman is considering an abortion, the woman doesn't want it generally known that she is pregnant, very often the 'father' is unknown (one night stand, was drunk, or is one of multiple sexual partners) or has disclaimed responsibility. If the woman knows or is prepared to disclose the father, he may no longer be in a relationship with the woman, his whereabouts may be unknown, doesn't want it known that he is the father, or doesn't intend to continue seeing her. Many pregnancies are the result of rape or incest, or occur where both parents are very young teenagers.
It seems that the Bhikkhu's mention of education in responsible relationships (education would have to be at different levels) would seem to cover the one night stands and other scenarios of unplanned pregnancy you brought up. It also covers the other circumstances surrounding the father as it suggests that the education will encourage woman to consider the partners they choose more carefully and avoid those of the character to act in that manner (leaving, estrangement, etc.). As for youth of the parents, this is also covered under responsible relationship education, but regarding this and rape/incest the meaningful alternatives mentioned come into play. Of course these are just alternatives, and some will still choose to abort.

The main point of my reply was to suggest that the Bhikkhu possibly had all of that in mind and made blanket statements.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:
Peter wrote:
Manapa wrote:look at the story related to verse 1 or 2 of the Dhammapada about the blind walking mediator.
What about it? That monk didn't violate any rules.
but did those who knew about it break them by not telling him?
You are asking if the non-blind monks violated the precept to abstain from killing by not telling the blind monk that he was about to step on an insect? In my understanding of the Buddha's teachings, no. At worst if one of the non-blind monks had the thought "I hope that blind monk steps on and kills some insects" then that monk has given rise to a unwholesome thought.

Things die. All the time. Nothing about the Buddha's teachings seek to prevent that. What they seek to prevent is the unwholesome mind-states which lead one to intentionally kill another or lead one to intentionally urge another to kill.

I would be interested to hear why you think the non-blind monks broke their precepts by not warning the blind monk.
each case is individual and can not be judged with a blanket rule.
Any act of intentional killing is taught to be unwholesome. There are no exceptions given in the teachings. When the Buddha was told of the blind monk causing the death of those insects, the Buddha said the act was blameless because there was no intention to kill.

If you want to assert that "each case is individual" then please provide an example from the teachings of the Buddha praising an act of intentional killing as wholesome or blameless.

Perhaps, Manapa, you think the precept to abstain from killing means to refer to both intentional and unintentional acts? This is not so. The precepts only pertain to intentional acts.
- Peter

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Peter,

This is a recurring theme, and I think you make some very compelling points. My question for you is this: Is it your understanding of the Buddhadhamma that inaction is never akusala kamma? Perhaps this should be a question for a split thread.

Metta
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jechbi,
This is a recurring theme, and I think you make some very compelling points. My question for you is this: Is it your understanding of the Buddhadhamma that inaction is never akusala kamma? Perhaps this should be a question for a split thread.
I think it depends what you mean by 'inaction'. If you mean no action of body, speech or mind, then no, there's no kamma of any sort.

If you mean without doing anything with one's body or speech, then yes, one can accumulate akusala mind-door kamma by thoughts of covetousness, ill will, wrong view etc..

Furthermore, there are circumstances in which one can perform akusala body-door kamma without the body moving (e.g., by commanding someone to kill) or akusala speech-door kamma without saying anything (e.g., when a bhikkhu who knows himself to be guilty of a Vinaya offence remains silent when asked if he is pure during a Patimokkha recital. The bhikkhu's silence in this context will be taken as a statement of his being free of any offence, and so he commits the akusala kamma of false speech).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


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It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by kc2dpt »

Jechbi wrote:Is it your understanding of the Buddhadhamma that inaction is never akusala kamma?
In short: Yes.
In long: What Ven. D. said.

I agree that any further discussion of this side topic is probably best suited to a new thread.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:You are asking if the non-blind monks violated the precept to abstain from killing by not telling the blind monk that he was about to step on an insect? In my understanding of the Buddha's teachings, no. At worst if one of the non-blind monks had the thought "I hope that blind monk steps on and kills some insects" then that monk has given rise to a unwholesome thought.

Things die. All the time. Nothing about the Buddha's teachings seek to prevent that. What they seek to prevent is the unwholesome mind-states which lead one to intentionally kill another or lead one to intentionally urge another to kill.

I would be interested to hear why you think the non-blind monks broke their precepts by not warning the blind monk.
then why did they go to the Buddha to ask about it? if you saw someone drowning and could help, without putting yourself in danger would you? or would you walk by? I know what I would do! inaction is not the best response all the time.
each case is individual and can not be judged with a blanket rule.
Any act of intentional killing is taught to be unwholesome. There are no exceptions given in the teachings. When the Buddha was told of the blind monk causing the death of those insects, the Buddha said the act was blameless because there was no intention to kill.

If you want to assert that "each case is individual" then please provide an example from the teachings of the Buddha praising an act of intentional killing as wholesome or blameless.
Perhaps, Manapa, you think the precept to abstain from killing means to refer to both intentional and unintentional acts? This is not so. The precepts only pertain to intentional acts.
I do not presume to know your thoughts, and it would be best to not suggest what mine are! I know fully well the meaning of the precepts.
and how about the man who has to decide who lives his un-born child, the mother or through inaction both, what then? he is being asked to decide who dies the mother or child, and if he does nothing then both die. this is a situation which happens there is no blanket case there, and I do not know of a case in the Suttas, but that doesn't mean there aren't any in life, or the suttas.
Last edited by Dhammanando on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Formatted quotes correctly.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:then why did they go to the Buddha to ask about it?
They weren't asking the Buddha a question; they were reporting what they thought was an offense on the part of the blind monk.
inaction is not the best response all the time.
I don't think anyone in this thread has indicated otherwise.
and how about the man who has to decide who lives his un-born child, the mother or through inaction both, what then? he is being asked to decide who dies the mother or child, and if he does nothing then both die.
Your example is a little vague. I can only point out that, from what I understand of the teachings:
Intentionally acting to save one person, knowing that as a result of that action another person might die, is a wholesome act.
Intentionally acting to kill one person, knowing that as a result of that action another person might live, is an unwholesome act.
It is a subtle distinction to be sure.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter if you wan't to take a narrow view great
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Post by kc2dpt »

Manapa wrote:Peter if you wan't to take a narrow view great
I am confused by this response. A narrow view of what? I am discussing what the Buddha taught on these matters. Are you saying we should take a wider view than the Buddha? Or are you still suggesting the Buddha taught the unwholesome as wholesome? You have yet to provide a scriptural example of this.

We can't simply assert the Buddha taught whatever we wish he had taught; that's dishonest. The truth is, sometimes we find our own personal beliefs conflict with the Buddha's teachings. That's where spiritual growth comes from. We may at times honestly feel that the right thing to do is take an unwholesome action. That's why the Buddha felt the need to teach us. As we develop on the Path we may gain a better understanding of why the Buddha recommended the things he did.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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