Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

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phil
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by phil »

bodom wrote:
phil wrote:At this point I would disagree with this because Right Concentration is defined as developing the jhanas, if I'm not mistaken, and the Buddha's teaching to householders that I've seen rarely if ever includes a call to develop jhanas...
Please see Analayo's Satipatthana Sutta commentary for an in depth look at sutta's that define right concentration not using the four jhana model.
A householder's practice focussing on doing dana and keeping the precepts is still hugely valuable and we are still very much followers of the Buddha's teaching if we go that far....
And you believe dana (generosity) and right action (5 precepts) to be something apart from the eightfold path?

:anjali:
I just don't know about right concentration, honestly I don't understand. But I have Analayo's book (commentary? that's what a blurb on the back cover calls it, but...) so I will have a look at it, thanks.

But would you (everyone) agree that the Buddha didn't urge all householders to practice meditation?
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by bodom »

But would you (everyone) agree that the Buddha didn't urge all householders to practice meditation?
Here are a few instances, all given to householders:
"To be sure, you householders provide the monastic community with clothing, food, shelter, and medicine, but you should not be satisfied with that. May you also from time to time strive to enter and abide in the joy of (inner meditative) seclusion!" - — AN 5.176
"A white-clad householder who is restrained in his actions according to the five precepts and who can, easily and without difficulty, obtain at will the four lofty mental abidings which bring happiness in the present — such a householder may, if he so wishes, declare of himself: 'Destroyed for me is (rebirth in) hell, destroyed is animal rebirth, destroy the realm of ghosts; destroyed for me are the lower worlds, the unhappy destinies, the abysmal realms; I have entered the stream, no more subject to fall into the states of woe, affirmed, assured of final enlightenment.'

"In what five precepts are his actions restrained? A noble disciple abstains from killing, from taking what is not given, from wrong sensual behavior, from lying, and from intoxicants that cause indolence.

"And what are the four lofty mental abidings bringing happiness in the present, which he can obtain at will?

"A noble disciple has unshakable faith in the Buddha, unshakable faith in the Teaching, unshakable faith in the Order; and he is possessed of virtues beloved by the Nobles — virtues that are unbroken, unviolated, untarnished, without blemish, bringing freedom, praised by the wise, uninfluenced, conducive to concentration.

"These are the four lofty mental abidings bringing happiness in the present, which purify the impure mind and cleanse the unclean mind. These he obtains at will, easily and without difficulty."

— AN 5.179
"Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?'

"One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, not undiscerning.

"Established in these five qualities, you should further develop six qualities:

[1] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the Buddha.'

[2] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Dhamma. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the Dhamma.'

[3] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types [of noble disciples] when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Sangha, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Sangha. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the Sangha.'

[4] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own virtues: '[They are] untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, conducive to concentration.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting virtue, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on virtue. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of virtue.'

[5] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own generosity: 'It is a gain, a great gain for me, that — among people overcome with the stain of possessiveness — I live at home, my awareness cleansed of the stain of possessiveness, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting generosity, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on generosity. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of generosity.'

[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the devas.'" - AN 11.12
"And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. This is called being consummate in discernment.

"These, TigerPaw, are the four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come." - AN 8.54
"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of greed, devoid of ill will, undeluded, alert, & resolute — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with compassion. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with compassion: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with appreciation. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with appreciation: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with equanimity. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with equanimity: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now... - — AN 3.65
Also read about Citta the Householder who was skilled in all four jhanas:

Lives of the Disciples I
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh115.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this interesting article by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ben
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by Ben »

Hi Phil,
phil wrote: But would you (everyone) agree that the Buddha didn't urge all householders to practice meditation?
Recorded in the suttas is the ancient practice of addressing a message to the highest ranking person or group of persons at an assembly. So, I am not of the opinion that meditation was for ordained sangha only. As it being a western phenomenon, you might be interested to know that very many people in Myanmar practice meditation. There are also a whole lot of people engaged in non-meditative practices as well, such as merit making and nat worship, who are also deeply spiritual and rightly called 'Buddhist'.
kind regards

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by zavk »

Ben wrote:Hi Phil,
phil wrote: But would you (everyone) agree that the Buddha didn't urge all householders to practice meditation?
Recorded in the suttas is the ancient practice of addressing a message to the highest ranking person or group of persons at an assembly. So, I am not of the opinion that meditation was for ordained sangha only. As it being a western phenomenon, you might be interested to know that very many people in Myanmar practice meditation. There are also a whole lot of people engaged in non-meditative practices as well, such as merit making and nat worship, who are also deeply spiritual and rightly called 'Buddhist'.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Phil

As bodom has pointed out, there are indications in the suttas that teachings related to mental training are relevant to the household life too.

To my knowledge, you're right in saying that the laicisation of meditation is a modern phenomenon, a development of the late nineteenth to early twentieth century. However, while western knowledge of Buddhism did prompt this development, it cannot be attributed solely to 'the West.' Western discourses on Buddhism of the nineteenth century reoriented the ways in which Buddhism was understood: the rationalistic and ethical aspects, for example, were emphasised, while the more traditional religious aspects were downplayed. In terms of Theravada, this prompted a revivalism of Buddhism in Asian lands like Ceylon, Burma, and Thailand, where we see a renewed interest in the Pali Canon and a shift from clerical authority to inner authority (Richard Gombrich and others have described this development in Ceylon as 'Protestant Buddhism'). This in turn allowed meditation to be repositioned as a central practice of Buddhism.

Such a development, however, should not be seen as a case of Asian Buddhists pandering to the expectations of 'the West'--it is not simply a case of western knowledge being forced upon them. Rather, Asian Buddhists adapted western knowledge on Buddhism to their local circumstances to help them reform Buddhism and also to help them negotiate the challenges of colonialism and modernity. So for instance, the reformation of Buddhism in Burma led to the laicisation of meditation. Figures like Ledi Sayadaw received support from social and national reform movements pushing for independence from colonial rule. Meditation centres were established and the practice was taught to civil servants and the general public. This was one of the early developments of what we now call the vipassana movement.

This is just a snapshot of some of the developments of the late nineteenth to early twentieth century. There are other developments as well but I highlight this here because it is relevant to what you are asking. So in a way, it could be said that the overriding emphasis on meditation is a modern development, but it is not a western phenomenon as such--though the encounter between Buddhism and the West did prompt this development. This is not to say that meditation was not of importance to Buddhism before modern times or that it was not 'originally' meant for laypeople. It is simply that the practice wasn't such a 'hot topic' and wasn't readily available to laypeople until recent times. Being a development of a recent times does not make it a 'fabrication' either. It is simply the outcome of Buddhism attuning itself to changing historical conditions.

There is an interesting article in Ben's scribd collection called 'Buddhist modernism and the rhetoric of meditative experience'. It is addressing certain academic methodological issues but it does give a good snapshot of the developments I mentioned above. If you are interested you can read it here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/30158484/Budd ... Experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
With metta,
zavk
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by cooran »

In the following thread there are suttas where the Buddha encouraged lay followers to continue and deepen their meditation:

Did the Buddha advocate meditation for lay people?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 72#p104438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 72#p104552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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phil
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by phil »

Thanks for the comments and references, all. I suppose it's because my hindrances are so very strong that I have a less than intensive attitude towards meditation. I do meditate every morning, but the purpose is to support sila. (I find that having a meditation object that I can return to easily during the day conditions patience in various situations in which an akusala response is likely otherwise.) The other day someone posted about having trouble with a flickering eyelid and I thought, man, if that's your biggest concern. So for people out there whose hindrances or environmental circumstances do not permit an intensive meditation practice, don't worry, you can still be a devoted follower of the Buddha by following the precepts and developing awareness of mind states in daily life. (Which I guess can be called "satipatthana." or "guarding the sense doors.") My life is so very entirely devoted to the Dhamma, I feel that, but my meditation is very slack, more like a kind of feel-good yoga. But I will not accept being told that I am a non-practising Buddhist, I mean, water off my back, honestly.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by bodom »

phil wrote:Thanks for the comments and references, all. I suppose it's because my hindrances are so very strong that I have a less than intensive attitude towards meditation. I do meditate every morning, but the purpose is to support sila. (I find that having a meditation object that I can return to easily during the day conditions patience in various situations in which an akusala response is likely otherwise.) The other day someone posted about having trouble with a flickering eyelid and I thought, man, if that's your biggest concern. So for people out there whose hindrances or environmental circumstances do not permit an intensive meditation practice, don't worry, you can still be a devoted follower of the Buddha by following the precepts and developing awareness of mind states in daily life. (Which I guess can be called "satipatthana." or "guarding the sense doors.") My life is so very entirely devoted to the Dhamma, I feel that, but my meditation is very slack, more like a kind of feel-good yoga. But I will not accept being told that I am a non-practising Buddhist, I mean, water off my back, honestly.
Let us not forget that there are two kinds of Eightfold Path: the "mundane," practiced by the "worldling" and the "supramundane," practiced by the "Noble Ones."
Buddha’s Teaching As It Is –Bhikkhu Bodhi

Lecture 7: Noble Eightfold Path


The Mundane Path

There are two kinds of Noble Eightfold Path. This is an important distinction to remember:

1. The mundane path
2. The supramundane path

The mundane path is developed when we try to purify our discipline,to develop concentration and to arouse insight either in day to day practice or in intensive periods of practice on retreats. The word "mundane" here does here does not mean a worldly path in the ordinary
sense, i.e. a path leading to wealth, fame or worldly success. This mundane path leads to enlightenment, and in fact we have to practice the mundane path to reach the supramundane path. This is called mundane path because even at its highest level of insight
contemplation, it still involves the contemplation of conditioned objects, that is, things included in the five aggregates.

The supramundane path is the direct seeing of Nibbana, the
unconditioned element.

People often mistake the Noble Eightfold Path for a mere path of ethical conduct. They think that as long as they are living within basic framework of morality, they are in accordance with the Noble Eightfold Path. This is not the case. The Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of Dukkha.When we practise the mundane path, our understanding gets deeper and deeper, sharper and sharper and when insight reaches its climax, at some unexpected moment a sudden
radical change can take place.

When wisdom stands at its highest point, if all the faculties of the mind are fully mature and the wish for enlightenment is
strong and steady, then the mind turns away from all conditioned phenomena and focuses on the unconditioned element. That is, the mind breaks through to the realisation of Nibbana. When this happens, all the eight factors of the path rise up simultaneously with great power of penetration,
focussing upon Nibbana. Therefore at this time the eight factors constitute the supramundane path or transcendental path.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/45730208/Noble-Eightfold-Path" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

phil wrote:Thanks for the comments and references, all. I suppose it's because my hindrances are so very strong that I have a less than intensive attitude towards meditation. I do meditate every morning, but the purpose is to support sila. (I find that having a meditation object that I can return to easily during the day conditions patience in various situations in which an akusala response is likely otherwise.) The other day someone posted about having trouble with a flickering eyelid and I thought, man, if that's your biggest concern. So for people out there whose hindrances or environmental circumstances do not permit an intensive meditation practice, don't worry, you can still be a devoted follower of the Buddha by following the precepts and developing awareness of mind states in daily life. (Which I guess can be called "satipatthana." or "guarding the sense doors.") My life is so very entirely devoted to the Dhamma, I feel that, but my meditation is very slack, more like a kind of feel-good yoga. But I will not accept being told that I am a non-practising Buddhist, I mean, water off my back, honestly.
Phil, we are all at different places on the path.
It sounds to me like you are putting in effort where you can and I congratulate you on this.
My suggestion, meditation wise is to try and find some time, perhaps 10 minutes walking followed by 10 minutes sitting,twice a day whenever possible.With practise like this,with time you should find that you start meditating longer.
Sometimes our best meditation sessions are the ones we don't want to do.
Good luck in your practice.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
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phil
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by phil »

Phra Chuntawongso wrote:
phil wrote:Thanks for the comments and references, all. I suppose it's because my hindrances are so very strong that I have a less than intensive attitude towards meditation. I do meditate every morning, but the purpose is to support sila. (I find that having a meditation object that I can return to easily during the day conditions patience in various situations in which an akusala response is likely otherwise.) The other day someone posted about having trouble with a flickering eyelid and I thought, man, if that's your biggest concern. So for people out there whose hindrances or environmental circumstances do not permit an intensive meditation practice, don't worry, you can still be a devoted follower of the Buddha by following the precepts and developing awareness of mind states in daily life. (Which I guess can be called "satipatthana." or "guarding the sense doors.") My life is so very entirely devoted to the Dhamma, I feel that, but my meditation is very slack, more like a kind of feel-good yoga. But I will not accept being told that I am a non-practising Buddhist, I mean, water off my back, honestly.
Phil, we are all at different places on the path.
It sounds to me like you are putting in effort where you can and I congratulate you on this.
My suggestion, meditation wise is to try and find some time, perhaps 10 minutes walking followed by 10 minutes sitting,twice a day whenever possible.With practise like this,with time you should find that you start meditating longer.
Sometimes our best meditation sessions are the ones we don't want to do.
Good luck in your practice.
With metta
Thank you kindly, Bhante.

(edit - I removed a description of my meditation practice that need be of no interest to anyone and was irrelevant to the point of this thread, my point in posting was that newcomers to the Dhamma should not feel that Buddhism equals meditation though it is wonderful if they have the inclination and environment for it! And if they do not, it doesn't mean they can't "be Buddhists." By keeping the precepts and being mindful in daily life it is possible to challenge and weaken the power of harmful defilements even without a meditation practice, and that is a fantastic boon to oneself and the people around us.)
Last edited by phil on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Practising and non-practising Buddhists?

Post by phil »

Let us not forget that there are two kinds of Eightfold Path: the "mundane," practiced by the "worldling" and the "supramundane," practiced by the "Noble Ones."
Thanks Bodom :smile:
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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