Anapanasati Vs. jhana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Nyana
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Nyana » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:48 am

starter wrote:I'm wondering if all distractive thoughts are quietened in one who has attained the 1st absorption -- no pumping up of any undirected thoughts at all from entering such absorption to withdrawing?
I'd suggest that it's far better to continue practicing and developing samādhi, rather than wondering about these types of questions. If you're able to commit to renunciation and solitude, then the mind will calm and vipassanā will lead to disenchantment and dispassion. When the mind is calm and clear everything else can fall into place. Ajahn Chah, Suffering on the Road:
  • Sitting meditation with a distracted mind is uncertain. When the meditation brings good results and the mind enters a state of calm, that's also uncertain. This is where insight comes. What is there left for you to attach to? Keep following up on what's happening in the mind. As you investigate, keep questioning and prodding, probing deeper and deeper into the nature of impermanence. Sustain your mindfulness right at this point -- you don't have to go anywhere else. In no time at all, the mind will calm down just as you want it to.

    The reason practising with the meditation word ''Buddho'' doesn't make the mind peaceful, or practising mindfulness of breathing doesn't make the mind peaceful, is because you are attaching to the distracted mind. When reciting ''Buddho'' or concentrating on the breath and the mind still hasn't calmed down, reflect on uncertainty and don't get too involved with the state of mind whether its peaceful or not. Even if you enter a state of calm, don't get too involved with it, because it can delude you and cause you to attach too much meaning and importance to that state. You have to use some wisdom when dealing with the deluded mind. When it is calm you simply acknowledge the fact and take it as a sign that the meditation is going in the right direction. If the mind isn't calm you simply acknowledge the reality that the mind is confused and distracted, but there's nothing to be gained from refusing to accept the truth and trying to struggle against it. When the mind is peaceful you can be aware that it is peaceful, but remind yourself that any peaceful state is uncertain. When the mind is distracted, you observe the lack of peace and know that it is just that -- the distracted state of mind is equally as prone to change as a peaceful one.

    If you have established this kind of insight, the attachment to the sense of self collapses as soon as you begin to confront it and investigate.
Ajahn Chah, Monastery of Confusion:
  • Whatever suits you, whatever you feel comfortable with and helps you fix your mind, focus on that.

    It's like this: if we get attached to the ideals and take the guidelines that we are given in the instructions too literally, it can be difficult to understand. When doing a standard meditation such as mindfulness of breathing, first we should make the determination that right now we are going to do this practice, and we are going to make mindfulness of breathing our foundation. We only focus on the breath at three points, as it passes through the nostrils, the chest and the abdomen. When the air enters it first passes the nose, then through the chest, then to the end point of the abdomen. As it leaves the body, the beginning is the abdomen, the middle is the chest, and the end is the nose. We merely note it. This is a way to start controlling the mind, tying awareness to these points at the beginning, middle and end of the inhalations and exhalations.

    Before we begin we should first sit and let the mind relax. It's similar to sewing robes on a treadle sewing machine. When we are learning to use the sewing machine, first we just sit in front of the machine to get familiar with it and feel comfortable. Here, we just sit and breathe. Not fixing awareness on anything, we merely take note that we are breathing. We take note of whether the breath is relaxed or not and how long or short it is. Having noticed this, then we begin focusing on the inhalation and exhalation at the three points.

    We practice like this until we become skilled in it and it goes smoothly. The next stage is to focus awareness only on the sensation of the breath at the tip of the nose or the upper lip. At this point we aren't concerned with whether the breath is long or short, but only focus on the sensation of entering and exiting.

    Different phenomena may contact the senses, or thoughts may arise. This is called initial thought (vitakka). The mind brings up some idea, be it about the nature of compounded phenomena (sankhārā), about the world, or whatever. Once the mind has brought it up, the mind will want to get involved and merge with it. If it's an object that is wholesome then let the mind take it up. If it is something unwholesome, stop it immediately. If it is something wholesome then let the mind contemplate it, and gladness, satisfaction and happiness will come about. The mind will be bright and clear; as the breath goes in and out and as the mind takes up these initial thoughts. Then it becomes discursive thought (vicāra). The mind develops familiarity with the object, exerting itself and merging with it. At this point, there is no sleepiness.

    After an appropriate period of this, take your attention back to the breath. Then as you continue on there will be the initial thought and discursive thought, initial thought and discursive thought. If you are contemplating skillfully on an object such as the nature of sankhāra, then the mind will experience deeper tranquility and rapture is born. There is the vitakka and vicāra, and that leads to happiness of mind. At this time there won't be any dullness or drowsiness. The mind won't be dark if we practice like this. It will be gladdened and enraptured.

    This rapture will start to diminish and disappear after a while, so you can take up the initial thought again. The mind will become firm and certain with it -- undistracted. Then you go on to discursive thought again, the mind becoming one with it. When you are practicing a meditation that suits your temperament and doing it well, then whenever you take up the object, rapture will come about: the hairs of the body stand on end and the mind is enraptured and satiated.
All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Sylvester » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:59 am

It might be of interest to Ajahn Chah fans that his use of "uncertain" has been translated as such from the Thai "mai neh" ('mai' being a negator). It appears to be the common understanding of the WPN Sangha that "neh" is from "nicca" and that Ajahn Chah was also bringing in the Vinaya sense of anicca not being just "impermanent", but "uncertain"/"unreliable" as well.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:14 pm

Sylvester wrote:Hi Mateesha

I think your analysis is in line with the Commentarial explanation of the perception of obhasa and rupa dassana described in MN 128.

However, as Ven Analayo points out, this explanation does not fit in with the Samannaphala "model" of the gradual training, where the iddhis come only after 4th Jhana.
Oh I see, yes- the fourth jhana is the 'base of power' - for someone developing the iddis that is the best place to attempt to develop it. However for those people who already have it, they do not need to keep going to the fourth jhana to 'activate' it. They can do it in a good hindrance free pre-jhanic samadhi. Automatic activation, I have heard, occur at all stages of development of samadhi- but of course they are best kept for exploration after stream entry and higher attainments.

With metta

Matheesha
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:22 pm

Sylvester wrote:It might be of interest to Ajahn Chah fans that his use of "uncertain" has been translated as such from the Thai "mai neh" ('mai' being a negator). It appears to be the common understanding of the WPN Sangha that "neh" is from "nicca" and that Ajahn Chah was also bringing in the Vinaya sense of anicca not being just "impermanent", but "uncertain"/"unreliable" as well.
I wondered whether there has been a mistranslation because there is change, followed by cessation/coming to an end, seen in all phenomena. These two elements constitute impermanence (I suppose you could add arising to that as well). I suspect 'unreliable' might be a reflection on the changing nature of all phenomena (viparinama).

With metta

Matheesha
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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Nyana » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 pm

rowyourboat wrote:I wondered whether there has been a mistranslation because there is change, followed by cessation/coming to an end, seen in all phenomena. These two elements constitute impermanence (I suppose you could add arising to that as well). I suspect 'unreliable' might be a reflection on the changing nature of all phenomena (viparinama).
Ajahn Chah, "Not Sure!" — The Standard of the Noble Ones:
  • All the teachings in this world can be contained in this one teaching: aniccam. Think about it. I've searched for over forty years as a monk and this is all I could find. That and patient endurance. This is how to approach the Buddha's teaching... aniccam: it's all uncertain.

    No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it, ''Not sure!'' Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, ''It's not sure, it's transient.'' Just ram it down with this. Using the Dhamma of the Buddha it all comes down to this. It's not that it's merely a momentary phenomenon. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you see everything in that way. Whether liking arises or dislike arises you see it all in the same way. This is getting close to the Buddha, close to the Dhamma.

    Now I feel that this is a more valuable way to practice. All my practice from the early days up to the present time has been like this. I didn't actually rely on the scriptures, but then I didn't disregard them either. I didn't rely on a teacher but then I didn't exactly ''go it alone.'' My practice was all ''neither this nor that.''

    Frankly it's a matter of ''finishing off,'' that is, practicing to the finish by taking up the practice and then seeing it to completion, seeing the apparent and also the transcendent.

    I've already spoken of this, but some of you may be interested to hear it again: if you practice consistently and consider things thoroughly, you will eventually reach this point... At first you hurry to go forward, hurry to come back, and hurry to stop. You continue to practice like this until you reach the point where it seems that going forward is not it, coming back is not it, and stopping is not it either! It's finished. This is the finish. Don't expect anything more than this, it finishes right here. Khīnāsavo - one who is completed. He doesn't go forward, doesn't retreat and doesn't stop. There's no stopping, no going forward and no coming back. It's finished. Consider this, realize it clearly in your own mind. Right there you will find that there is really nothing at all.
All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:44 pm

Hello Geoff,

Many thanks for the excellent quotes and advice. Matheesha kindly advised before not to wonder about if it's jhana or not but I forgot it. Indeed "it's far better to continue practicing and developing samādhi, rather than wondering about these types of questions [about jhana itself]. If you're able to commit to renunciation and solitude, then the mind will calm and vipassanā will lead to disenchantment and dispassion. When the mind is calm and clear everything else can fall into place." -- well said.

Metta,

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Dmytro » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:24 am

Hi,

There are at least two ways to practice Anapanasati, - with a focus on samatha (jhana, samadhi) and with a focus on vipassana.

The difference between samatha and vipassana practices of Anapanasati is explained on the page 23 of the book "In This Life Itself" by Ven. Dhammajiva:

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Samadhi is when the totality (kasina) of perception is coloured by the basis (arammana) of concentration, as described in Kosala sutta:

"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reason of establishing remembrance (sati) in the area between the mouth and the nostrils ('parimuhkhaṃ', as described in Anapanasati sutta) is to acquire the nimitta (perceptual image) of air, since the Anapanasati jhana is based on the element of air:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

"Sati upatthana" means that 'sati', having approached, is established on that basis (arammana), - nimitta (perceptual image), that arises due to natural inbreath and outbreath.

(Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509)

Kiṃ pana pathavīkasiṇaṃ ādiṃ katvā aṭṭhikasaññāpariyosānāvesā rūpāvacarappanā, udāhu aññāpi atthīti? Atthi; ānāpānajjhānañhi kāyagatāsatibhāvanā ca idha na kathitā. Kiñcāpi na kathitā vāyokasiṇe pana gahite ānāpānajjhānaṃ gahitameva; vaṇṇakasiṇesu ca gahitesu kesādīsu catukkapañcakajjhānavasena uppannā kāyagatāsati, dasasu asubhesu gahitesu dvattiṃsākāre paṭikūlamanasikārajjhānavasena ceva navasivathikāvaṇṇajjhānavasena ca pavattā kāyagatāsati gahitāvāti. Sabbāpi rūpāvacarappanā idha kathitāva hotīti.

"But is this all the absorption belonging to the consciousness of the sphere of refined form, beginning with the earth kasiṇa and ending in the perception of the skeleton? Or is there anything else?"
"Yes, there is. There is ānāpāna jhāna and the development of kāyagatāsati, which have not been spoken of here."
"Why not?"
"Because ānāpāna jhāna is included in the air kasiṇa; the development of kāyagatāsati arisen by virtue of the fourfold and fivefold jhānas with reference to the hair etc., is included in the colour kasiṇas; the kāyagatāsati produced by virtue of the jhānas attending to the unattractiveness in the thirty-two parts of the body, and that of the jhāna attending to the colours of the nine kinds of corpses in the charnel grounds is included in the ten repulsive things. Thus all the absorptions of consciousness connected with the sphere of refined form have been included here."

(Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200)

For practical descriptions of how this can be done, in the case of air, see:

De-perception by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ption.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anapanasati chapter of Vimuttimagga
http://www.archive.org/details/ArahantU ... reedom.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One has to tune in the "airiness" of the air, and gradually spread it all over the body, as Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo describes:

"When you see that a nimitta has appeared, mindfully focus your awareness on it — but be sure to focus on only one at a time, choosing whichever one is most comfortable. Once you've got hold of it, expand it so that it's as large as your head. The bright white nimitta is useful to the body and mind: It's a pure breath that can cleanse the blood in the body, reducing or eliminating feelings of physical pain."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The initial perceptual image of the air, thanks to which such 'colouring' of the perception can be done, is called 'nimitta'. This term is mentioned in the suttas in the context of jhana, as for example in the Gavi sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and elsewhere - see the thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2770" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately, later the sense of the term 'nimitta' was pretty much lost. But it has been regained, for example, in the Pa Auk Sayadaw lineage.

Metta, Dmytro

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Dmytro » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:29 am

P.S. And the best start for Ananapasati is clearing the initial hindrances, as described in Patisambhidamagga:

"Consciousness becoming distracted is avoided for the following six reasons:

(i) By avoiding consciousness which runs after the past (breaths) and is attacked by distraction, (consciousness) is concentrated in one place.[19]

(ii) By avoiding consciousness which looks forward to the future (breaths) and is attacked by wavering, (consciousness) is fixed (there).

(iii) By exerting[20] slack consciousness attacked by indolence, one abandons indolence.

(iv) By restraining[21] over-exerted consciousness attacked by agitation, one abandons agitation.

(v) By being clearly comprehending[22] about consciousness which is attracted and attacked by greed, one abandons greed.

(vi) By being clearly comprehending[23] about consciousness which is discontented and attacked by ill will, one abandons ill will."

http://www.bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As described in Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, clearing of these obstacles paves the way to achieving jhana.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:26 pm

Hello Dmytro,

Many thanks for kindly translates the following:

"Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

"Sati upatthana" means that 'sati', having approached, is established on that basis (arammana), - nimitta (perceptual image), that arises due to natural inbreath and outbreath.

(Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509)

Kiṃ pana pathavīkasiṇaṃ ādiṃ katvā aṭṭhikasaññāpariyosānāvesā rūpāvacarappanā, udāhu aññāpi atthīti? Atthi; ānāpānajjhānañhi kāyagatāsatibhāvanā ca idha na kathitā. Kiñcāpi na kathitā vāyokasiṇe pana gahite ānāpānajjhānaṃ gahitameva; vaṇṇakasiṇesu ca gahitesu kesādīsu catukkapañcakajjhānavasena uppannā kāyagatāsati, dasasu asubhesu gahitesu dvattiṃsākāre paṭikūlamanasikārajjhānavasena ceva navasivathikāvaṇṇajjhānavasena ca pavattā kāyagatāsati gahitāvāti. Sabbāpi rūpāvacarappanā idha kathitāva hotīti.

"But is this all the absorption belonging to the consciousness of the sphere of refined form, beginning with the earth kasiṇa and ending in the perception of the skeleton? Or is there anything else?"
"Yes, there is. There is ānāpāna jhāna and the development of kāyagatāsati, which have not been spoken of here."
"Why not?"
"Because ānāpāna jhāna is included in the air kasiṇa; the development of kāyagatāsati arisen by virtue of the fourfold and fivefold jhānas with reference to the hair etc., is included in the colour kasiṇas; the kāyagatāsati produced by virtue of the jhānas attending to the unattractiveness in the thirty-two parts of the body, and that of the jhāna attending to the colours of the nine kinds of corpses in the charnel grounds is included in the ten repulsive things. Thus all the absorptions of consciousness connected with the sphere of refined form have been included here."

(Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200)"

Is Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200 included in sutta pitaka?

Metta,

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by IanAnd » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:14 pm

starter wrote: Is Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200 included in sutta pitaka?
It's part of the commentarial tradition. The term "Atthakatha" is a reference to a commentary. And yes, it is included in the sutta pitaka (the three baskets). The Dhammasangani is part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, as would be this commentarial work that Dmytro referenced.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by legolas » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:16 pm

IanAnd wrote:
starter wrote: Is Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200 included in sutta pitaka?
It's part of the commentarial tradition. The term "Atthakatha" is a reference to a commentary. And yes, it is included in the sutta pitaka (the three baskets). The Dhammasangani is part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, as would be this commentarial work that Dmytro referenced.
A commentary can hardly belong to the suttas. Sutta pitaka contains suttas. The three baskets are tipitaka, a term which came into use centuries after the Buddha when material was added to the sutta/vinaya. It was good PR, tipitaka sounds so cool a bit like the christian holy trinity. Sutta's are the Buddha's teachings. Vinaya are the Buddha's teachings.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:29 pm

Hello Matheesha,

Since your following posts are more relevant to this thread, I copied them here and would like to continue our discussion in this thread instead.

“Long breath, short breath, whole body of breath, stopping of the breath-30%

Piti, sukha, mental fabrication, calming mental fabrication -60%

Sensitive/experiencing the mind, gladdening the mind, unifying the mind, releasing the mind (first jhana) -100%”

-- If the breath has already stopped at step 4, how can we "shall breathe in/out to experience piti / sukha / ..."? The sequence of the 16 steps doesn't seem to suggest the stopping of the breath at step 4, but rather calmed breath?

"My experience with 'calming the mental fabrication' has been the absorption into nimitta/background of the mind. -A bit like draining the water from the fish tank until the water surface hits the white sand at the bottom."
-- Since I don't tend to use nimitta, I've started trying to experience the stillness of mental fabrication (step 8), which is similar to your absorption into the "background of the mind". I'd like to know if you do this only for step 8, and then move to step 9-10? Do you only return to the breath at step 11 (unifying the mind)?

I'm a bit confused about the the singleness of the mind now. Steps 5-10 don't seem to be only focused on the breathing, but rather on a variety of things (feelings, perceptions, mind, ...) while paying attention to breathing. Only steps 1-4 seem to be single-minded on breathing, or probably also step 11?

Metta,

Starter

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by Vossaga (Element) » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:11 pm

starter wrote:When we practice Anapanasati for samadhi, should we only practice Step1-4 until reaching jhana someday, and then continue with Step 5-16 for vipassana? I suppose if we practice Anapanasati for vipassana after reaching access concentration, it's OK to do all the 16 steps; however, it's hard to enter jhana this way due to too many steps and changes.
Dear Starter

Anapanasati is a natural unfolding of sixteen experiences. When your mind can engage wisdom (panna) appropriately, in a manner that results in letting go, then stage 3 [onto stage 16] will commence. Please carefully read the Anapanasati Sutta, where beginning at stage 3, the Buddha uses the words: "He trains himself". This training is the fulfilment of the three trainings, which are sila, samadhi & panna. Anapanasati without panna is not the Buddha's anapanasati. Please read my other posts on this forum for more detail (here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

If you wish to succeed at Anapanasati, I can only suggest you let go of the samadhi/vipassana dichotomies you have learned. As I have already said, the last fourteen stages unfold naturally when the mind is established in the ariya samma samadhi, where right view is the leader, as described in MN 117, which is the prepatory sutta for MN 118 (the Anapanasati Sutta).

When the ariya samma samadhi (established in letting go, as Ajahn Brahm and I have recommended) is immature, Anapanasati will proceed on the path of neighbourhood concentration. Here, the mind can experience a plentitude of rapture & happiness, sufficient for profound vipassana. However, this level of practise is not yet jhana. Where rapture & happiness last only for a short time before subsiding, say 10 to 30 minutes, this is not yet jhana.

When and if the sixteen stages are completed on the level of neighbourhood concentration, the meditator must begin again on a much more refined level, which will lead to the jhana level. In jhana, the abiding in rapture & happiness will last for many hours, in perfect unity of mind.

The suttas do not reconcile Anapanasati and jhana. For example, the jhana discourses do not mention the experience of the underlying mental defilements (stage 9) that arise when rapture & happiness are calmed at stage 8. Stage 12 of Anapanasati, which liberates the mind from all mental defilements, including liberating the mind from any one-pointed concentration (leaving the mind bright, open, malleable & pure), seems to equate with the fourth jhana.

To end, there are many ways to use the mind. But if the mind from the outset is not established in letting go, in the abandonment of craving (including the craving to be 'concentrated'), this is not the Buddha's Anapanasati. In the Buddha's anapanasati, the practitioner "trains himself/herself" in the unification of sila, samadhi & panna, where panna is the forerunner or leader, as described in MN 117.

With metta

:meditate:
Last edited by Vossaga (Element) on Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:16 pm

Hi Starter,

The breath stops only for a few seconds. We use the breath to go in deeper than that- so the breath has to 'start up' again. I would suggest just focusing on the breath for now, without guessing where you are on the anapanasati progression scale. This is because we can jump to wrong conclusions if we are not well traversed on this samadhi 'ladder'. All the first 12 steps will happen on their own- just by focusing on the breath, without anything else added. That is what I would recommend in the first instance.

Note that the monks in the vicinity were already heavily into practice, when he taught the anapanasati sutta- so this is not beginners practice.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana

Post by starter » Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:22 am

Hello Vossaga,

Welcome to our "sanga". It's very nice to have you join us.

Your very helpful advice is most appreciated. To my understanding, you post seems to suggest "Anapanasati" contains 16 stages/experiences rather than 16 steps to be practiced/completed in one sitting by the beginners whose "ariya samma samadhi" hasn't been established or stabilized (?). I also had this thought before and hence practiced for a while the breathing meditation in the satipatthana sutta (which seems to suit the beginners better):
• Step 1 & 2: with mental labeling – breathe in / out while discerning long/short …;
• Step 3: Experiencing the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out;
• Step 4: Experiencing the calmed formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out;
• Step 5: Discern this body’s breathing, other bodies’ breathing, this body and other bodies’ breathing;
• Step 6: Discern the arising, ceasing, arising and ceasing of the breathing.
Then the mindfulness/awareness that 'there is a body' (a fine sense of body awareness?) is maintained just to the extent of knowledge & remembrance [by following breathing or imaginary breathing when the breath is not detectable].

Please see my post (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) for the reason why I interpreted "bodily fabrication" as "the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing".

I guess I'd better go back to this set of sitting meditation instead of doing the whole 16 steps of anapanasati now. Of course, as you've already pointed out, I should train myslef in the unification of sila, samadhi & panna, and get established in letting-go of "self" and craving.

Your comments and advice would be most welcome.

Metta,

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