psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Jhana4
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:58 pm

The word chosen for the translation is "intoxicants". Psychiatric drugs don't intoxicate people, it helps them cope with illness.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Alex123
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Alex123 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:04 pm

Jhana4 wrote:The word chosen for the translation is "intoxicants". Psychiatric drugs don't intoxicate people, it helps them cope with illness.
Psychiatric drugs sometimes can drug a person so much, that they end up killing others and/or themselves.

"Professor Healy stated clearly that in a small but significant minority of patients using SSRIs can give rise to violent behavior including self-harm, suicide and violence to others, even up to killing them. He said that this was independent of any condition the patient might have, as the same symptomatology had been observed in healthy volunteers."

"Dr Healy criticized the existing warnings for patients, as they give the impression that such feelings and behaviours are part of the patient’s complaint, and because they are not strong enough. ”The risk arises entirely from the treatment,” he said.
http://www.ssristories.com/show.php?item=4137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:06 am

Alex123 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:The word chosen for the translation is "intoxicants". Psychiatric drugs don't intoxicate people, it helps them cope with illness.
Psychiatric drugs sometimes can drug a person so much, that they end up killing others and/or themselves.
Sometimes, but without such medications the likelihood of death and incapacitation is far greater.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Alex123 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:The word chosen for the translation is "intoxicants". Psychiatric drugs don't intoxicate people, it helps them cope with illness.
Psychiatric drugs sometimes can drug a person so much, that they end up killing others and/or themselves.
Sometimes, but without such medications the likelihood of death and incapacitation is far greater.
It seems to me that CBT + exercise is much safer alternative, at least for some. Plus some Dhamma knowledge would really help. If a person has an emotional problem, I don't think that drugging them to the vegetable-state (where they can't do bad thing, but neither can they do good things) is such a good thing. Much better to try to help them develop some wisdom.

Some studies seem to suggest that anti-depressants are not much better than placebo, but have serious side effects as I've quoted above.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:49 am

Alex123 wrote: It seems to me that CBT + exercise is much safer alternative, at least for some. Plus some Dhamma knowledge would really help. If a person has an emotional problem, I don't think that drugging them to the vegetable-state (where they can't do bad thing, but neither can they do good things) is such a good thing. Much better to try to help them develop some wisdom.

Some studies seem to suggest that anti-depressants are not much better than placebo, but have serious side effects as I've quoted above.
In other words, you really do not know what you are talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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andre9999
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by andre9999 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:In other words, you really do not know what you are talking about.
+1. Too much theorizing and not enough firsthand or secondhand experience.

PeterB
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:28 am

What Alex 123 if you gave an argument, and noone showed up ?

Your broadside against man made cilmate change is running out of steam....I think you are looking for a new fight.
As a psychiatrist I find certain posters very interesting indeed... :smile:

I certainly have no intention of feeding compulsive behaviour. If anyone has any real points to make about psychiatry they can always PM me.

pulga
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by pulga » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:16 pm

I don't think it is so much the drugs themselves, but the manner in which they're being doled out.

I recommend Harpers Magazine's review of DSM-IV: it's a great read:

"Not content with the merely weird, the DSM-IV also attempts to claim dominion over the mundane. Current among the many symptoms of the deranged mind are bad writing (315.2. and its associated symptom, poor handwriting); coffee drinking, including coffee nerves (305.90), bad coffee nerves (292.89), inability to sleep after drinking too much coffee (292.89), and something that probably has something to do with coffee, though the therapist can’t put his finger on it (292.9); shyness (299.80, also known as Asperger’s Disorder); sleepwalking (307.46); jet lag (307.45); snobbery (301. 7, a subset of Antisocial Personality Disorder); and insomnia (307.42); to say nothing of tobacco smoking, which includes both getting hooked (305.10) and going cold turkey (292.0). You were out of your mind the last time you had a nightmare (307.4 7). Clumsiness is now a mental illness (315.4). So is playing video games (Malingering, V65.2). So is doing just about anything “vigorously.” So, under certain circumstances, is falling asleep at night."

http://www.harpers.org/archive/1997/02/0008270" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PeterB
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:52 pm

I cannot speak with any knowledge of the USA scene pulga. I can tell you that currently in Europe tranqillisers and antidepressants are not " doled out". Not by any psychiatrists I know.

Of course it is understandable that in some parts of the world where psychiatry was used as a form of political repression by the state, as in the former USSR, that suspicions should linger.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:19 pm

pulga wrote:I don't think it is so much the drugs themselves, but the manner in which they're being doled out.

I recommend Harpers Magazine's review of DSM-IV: it's a great read:

"Not content with the merely weird, the DSM-IV also attempts to claim dominion over the mundane. Current among the many symptoms of the deranged mind are bad writing (315.2. and its associated symptom, poor handwriting); coffee drinking, including coffee nerves (305.90), bad coffee nerves (292.89), inability to sleep after drinking too much coffee (292.89), and something that probably has something to do with coffee, though the therapist can’t put his finger on it (292.9); shyness (299.80, also known as Asperger’s Disorder); sleepwalking (307.46); jet lag (307.45); snobbery (301. 7, a subset of Antisocial Personality Disorder); and insomnia (307.42); to say nothing of tobacco smoking, which includes both getting hooked (305.10) and going cold turkey (292.0). You were out of your mind the last time you had a nightmare (307.4 7). Clumsiness is now a mental illness (315.4). So is playing video games (Malingering, V65.2). So is doing just about anything “vigorously.” So, under certain circumstances, is falling asleep at night."

http://www.harpers.org/archive/1997/02/0008270" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From the bolded bit, i don't think this review should be taken seriously. If a person equates Asperger's syndrome with shyness, that person is completely ignorant.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Alex123
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Alex123 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote: It seems to me that CBT + exercise is much safer alternative, at least for some. Plus some Dhamma knowledge would really help. If a person has an emotional problem, I don't think that drugging them to the vegetable-state (where they can't do bad thing, but neither can they do good things) is such a good thing. Much better to try to help them develop some wisdom.

Some studies seem to suggest that anti-depressants are not much better than placebo, but have serious side effects as I've quoted above.
In other words, you really do not know what you are talking about.

I don't want to sound like know-it-all, and I accept the fact that studies that I've read could be wrong. I've read the handout on one anti-depressant that I was using and even the drug makers do not know how or why it works (if it works. For me it didn't do anything good).
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Alex123 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:02 pm

andre9999 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, you really do not know what you are talking about.
+1. Too much theorizing and not enough firsthand or secondhand experience.

I've tried a couple of anti-depressants and some of their side effects. I can guess why some people could easily go crazy when certain side effects occur.

PeterB wrote:I cannot speak with any knowledge of the USA scene pulga. I can tell you that currently in Europe tranqillisers and antidepressants are not " doled out". Not by any psychiatrists I know.
It is too easy in Canada to get anti-depressants. Just go to the GP and ask for it. Usually they'll give it to you with no problem. That was my experience.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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