Women can be Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: Women cannot be Buddha etc.

Post by DNS »

Will wrote: Buddha also knew that a woman could not be Yama, Brahmaa, Chakravartin etc.
Also a woman cannot be Mara. As some women I know would say, 'it is true, only a man can be Mara.' :twisted:

In the Buddhist cosmology, Mara, like the other 'deva' positions is like an 'office-holder' subject to rebirth and 'someone else' takes his position, another male.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Yeshe »

TheDhamma wrote:
Upasaka wrote: No such problem in the Mahayana - Kwan Yin, Tara etc. LOL :)
If you are referring to the history of misogyny in Buddhism, the Mahayana has not fared any better.

All of the Zen patriarchs from Bodhidharma through modern times were male.

All of the Dalai Lamas from the first to the current Tenzin Gyatso, were male. The search committee only looks for males for a high ranking lama's future rebirth.

The Theravada has a record of many fully enlightened bhikkhunis, recorded in the Pali Canon as shown in some of the quotes you provided.
Nope. I agree with you. :)

I was simply stating that the Mahayana has some very high profile female Buddhas and so appears to have no obvious problem acknowledging them as such.

As for the Mahayana having its share of bad clerics, I know of no monastic community free from corruption, be it the sodomy of boy monk 'consorts', political oppression or mysogeny.

As for the Dalai Lama, who knows what is going on :shrug: :

I have heard that he will identify his successor before he dies.
I have heard that he says he will not seek rebirth.
Both statements make a nonsense of any search for a DL or Tulku.

But then, I have also heard that he used to travel with his female consort who has borne him a child and is now no longer seen in public with him. Maybe the son is his 'successor' and he fancies a royal dynasty. LOL :)
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by green »

Upasaka wrote:
TheDhamma wrote:
Upasaka wrote: No such problem in the Mahayana - Kwan Yin, Tara etc. LOL :)
If you are referring to the history of misogyny in Buddhism, the Mahayana has not fared any better.

All of the Zen patriarchs from Bodhidharma through modern times were male.

All of the Dalai Lamas from the first to the current Tenzin Gyatso, were male. The search committee only looks for males for a high ranking lama's future rebirth.

The Theravada has a record of many fully enlightened bhikkhunis, recorded in the Pali Canon as shown in some of the quotes you provided.
Nope. I agree with you. :)

I was simply stating that the Mahayana has some very high profile female Buddhas and so appears to have no obvious problem acknowledging them as such.

As for the Mahayana having its share of bad clerics, I know of no monastic community free from corruption, be it the sodomy of boy monk 'consorts', political oppression or mysogeny.

As for the Dalai Lama, who knows what is going on :shrug: :

I have heard that he will identify his successor before he dies.
I have heard that he says he will not seek rebirth.
Both statements make a nonsense of any search for a DL or Tulku.

But then, I have also heard that he used to travel with his female consort who has borne him a child and is now no longer seen in public with him. Maybe the son is his 'successor' and he fancies a royal dynasty. LOL :)
I have read all the major Mahayana suttas. Which one says that a woman can become a sammasambuddho?
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by jcsuperstar »

in what language? the mahayana canon isnt even completly into english yet....

also even in the lotus sutra the dragon girl turns into a man, so she can be a buddha but as a man...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Fede »

Who knows?
Who cares?
Why care?

Does it affect your practice now?

probably not.

If you're a man in this life, why worry?

if you're a woman in this life, why worry?

Just practice.

The rest will unfold as it unfolds.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Fede wrote: Why care?
Agreed.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by DNS »

pink_trike wrote: The current Dalai Lama has said that the next Dalai Lama may be a woman.
:thumbsup:

Cool, but I'd almost bet money that it will still be a male that they "find" to be the rebirth of Tenzin Gyatso.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by DNS »

green wrote: I have read all the major Mahayana suttas. Which one says that a woman can become a sammasambuddho?
I don't know which one or if there is one, but Kwan Yin, Tara, and others are not samma-sam-buddhas. A samma-sam-buddha rediscovers the teachings after they have died out.

In that sense, from a Theravada perspective, Kwan Yin and Tara (if they "exist") would be Arahants, no higher (or lower) than the hundreds, perhaps thousands of bhikkhunis who attained enlightenment during the life of the Buddha.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Yeshe »

TheDhamma wrote:
green wrote: I have read all the major Mahayana suttas. Which one says that a woman can become a sammasambuddho?
I don't know which one or if there is one, but Kwan Yin, Tara, and others are not samma-sam-buddhas. A samma-sam-buddha rediscovers the teachings after they have died out.

In that sense, from a Theravada perspective, Kwan Yin and Tara (if they "exist") would be Arahants, no higher (or lower) than the hundreds, perhaps thousands of bhikkhunis who attained enlightenment during the life of the Buddha.
In Tantra, there are many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, both male and female. There are tantric texts supporting their status, but I don't know if 'green' has read any of them. Kwan Yin of course is simply a female version (rather than an emanation) of the male Buddha Avalokiteshvara, so has exactly the same status. Tantric practices contain such descriptions, but it would not be proper to elaborate.

Of course, all sutras and all histories are open to question, so it would be wrong to disown any, as we have no way of judging their provenance.

The historical figure called the 'Buddha' is quoted as a source both in Theravada and Mahayana scriptures - I have no reason to believe that his biographers and 'scribes' did not transmit an interpetation of the teachings which favoured themselves, as happens with many other religions.

The point is well made that it depends upon our own mind and the 'reality' it accepts. The Madhyamika Prasangika view, repeated in the scriptures, is that Buddhas all lack inherent existence, male or female or other. ;)

Berzin explains: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ra_04.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Yeshe on Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by jcsuperstar »

there is good reason to doubt some sutras, in fact any sutra that mentions it being wrten down and copied would be a fraud as the buddha lived in an oral culture so the process being talked about would come from a later time. also some of the mahayana sutras mention debates going on within the sangha that happened hindreds of years after the buddha, so again a good indicator that the sutra is a fraud. if i found a sutra that said "at that time the buddha had just got back from 7-11 and had blue lips from the slushie he had just eaten" i should know it can't really have come from the time of the buddha right? same with these sutras that mention things that are also historically inacurate.
Last edited by jcsuperstar on Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Yeshe »

jcsuperstar wrote:there is good reason to doubt some sutras, in fact any sutra that mention sit being wrten down and copied would be a fraud as the buddha lived in an oral culture so the process being talked about would come from a later time. also some of the mahayana sutras mention debates going on within the sangha that happened hindreds of years after the buddha, so again a good indicator that the sutra is a fraud. if i found a sutra that said "at tha time the buddha had just got back from 7-11 and have blue lips from the slushie he had just eaten" i should know it can't really have come from the time of the buddha right? same with these sutras that mention things that are also historically inacurate.
Pali suttas and Mahayana sutras which we now read were all written down, so I don't understand your first sentence I'm afraid.

The point I made was, simply put, that no scriptures were written down as a contemporary record, and it would be incredible if they were free from errors and distortions.

As we have no contemporary written record, historical accuracy is equally unproven. Nobody has any idea what debates took place when, but we do know that as nothing was written down for hundreds of years, the mention of events which took place after the death of Buddha does not invalidate them at all. ;)

There will always be the ultimate sticking point which is entirely a matter of personal choice - did Buddha teach after his 'death' as Shakyamuni, and if so what means did he employ - for example, through action as a female Budda? :)
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by green »

jcsuperstar wrote:there is good reason to doubt some sutras, in fact any sutra that mentions it being wrten down and copied would be a fraud as the buddha lived in an oral culture so the process being talked about would come from a later time. also some of the mahayana sutras mention debates going on within the sangha that happened hindreds of years after the buddha, so again a good indicator that the sutra is a fraud. if i found a sutra that said "at that time the buddha had just got back from 7-11 and had blue lips from the slushie he had just eaten" i should know it can't really have come from the time of the buddha right? same with these sutras that mention things that are also historically inacurate.
Are you implying that Buddha would refuse a slushi from a 7-11 if offered from the faithful? :cry:


Why is it a fraud? Are you saying Buddha is dead?
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