"Thou art that"

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by octathlon » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:24 am

Goofaholix wrote:Perhaps the the view of Buddhist practice could be summarised "Thou art not that".
Or maybe, "That is not thou, That is not thine."

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by octathlon » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:34 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Anyone know of some other good counter-quotes?
I sink, therefore I swam.

I link, therefore I spam.

I oink, therefore I ham.

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by VeganLiz » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:55 am

kirk5a wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Practicing "Not self strategy" seems pretty challenging.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by alan » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:36 am

It's also possible your professor was an Alan Watts devotee.
That shtick has been used many, many times before.
I remember reading an interview with the founders of the Esalen institute where they talked about a teacher who did pretty much the same thing.

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by kirk5a » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:54 am

VeganLiz wrote: Practicing "Not self strategy" seems pretty challenging.
Yes. But, if we focus on this part -

"Am I suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?"

then I think it's workable. Something we can use. Not TOO challenging (not beyond what we're able to do).
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by Ben » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:46 am

Hi M4
Metta-4 wrote:It sounds like an Eastern version of "I think therefore I am." Buddha responds, "No you don't; and no you aren't." :D

I was reading Ledi Sayadaw the other night who said (in words to the effect of) according to the Buddha, one is just phenomena and process.
I'll have to dig the quote out...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by cooran » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:20 am

Hello VeganLiz, Ben, All,

Ben, I'll look forward to that quote when you've got the time.

A little reading matter:

Anatta or soul-lessness by Narada Thera
http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell09.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Trilogy of Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/trilogy.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ANATTA (NON-SELF) by Ajahn Brahmavamso
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ANATTA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:07 pm

None of these have been declared as true by the Buddha:

Thou art that, thou art not that
Thou art both that and not that
Thou art neither that, nor not that

with metta

With Metta

& Upekkha

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by Goedert » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:45 pm

I have found an article that explain such a meaning... See above:
The genuine meaning of Tathagata

Copyright 2007 Aryasatvan

The Tathagata, pronounced: “Taaht-ahgatah”, in the common nonsensical definition by ignorant modern “Buddhism” is meant “thus come one”, or “thus gone one”. This view ignorantly implies a formal appellation of importance (such as Sir, Master, Great-One, etc.) rather than a denotation of a profound spiritual attainment.

The term Tathagata is composed of two parts, Tat, and agata. Tat has been since time immemorial in India, meant Brahman, the Absolute, as in the famous Upanishadic dictum: “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course Brahman, the Godhead, the Subject of Selfhood which the muni, or sage, has reached at the pinnacle of his having fulfilled wisdom’s perfection. Agata is the past tense denotation of gata (going, traveling, trekking), here being meant “arrival, gone-unto, attainment of, arrival-at”. As such, Tathagata in the ancient Prakrit Pali, is meant literally “(The sage who has) arrived at the Absolute”, or in Sramanic context of Vedanta and Buddhism, “(He-thou) is (arrived at) That”. The very term Tathagata, which has of yet never been discovered by anyone until now, is none other than a personal appellation of that very rare someone who has realized by wisdom “tat tvam asi”. The Tathagata, therefore, is equally as well meant “The ‘tat tvam asi’ comprehensor/sage”.

It is unfathomable that modern so-called Buddhism’s position is that the spiritual appellation of the Buddha’s attainment, “attained/arrived at Brahman” (Tathagata) is merely an honorary designation for a popular sage. As [It 57] and other passages clearly show, “become-Brahman” is the meaning of the term Tathagata, or he who has arrived (agata), again being meant the transfiguration and assimilation of the mind (citta) in upon itself (bhava), and thereby achieving the Absolute, i.e. Brahman, as such (brahmabhutam tathagata) is said. To say that Tathagata, is meant by nonsensical “Buddhism”, to the effect: that Tathagata denotes the “thus-come one”, or “thus-gone one” has no contextual validity, is utterly illogical to read Pali as such, and carries no meaning whatsoever, which is all the more so magnified given that the very term Tathagata carries, regardless of translation, a very weighty importance and denotation; thereby secular ‘Buddhism’ intends to castrate the meaning of the term Tathagata, is yet another resection of original Buddhism by modern sects to turn Buddhism into a moralistic movement devoid of metaphysics.

Scriptural collaboration of same: (Tathagatassa hetam, adhivacanam brahmabhuto itipi)-“The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'” [DN 3.84]. (brahmabhutam tathagata)-“Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata” [It 57]. Many more such passages are preset in suttana.
Source: Aryan Buddhism Blog

I do not have any schoolar knowledge, so this article get me confused. The autor of the blog also made some heavy critics about moderm buddhism culture, even about Theravada.

Any one could clarify the Therada version for this account?

Blog: http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by Hanzze » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:41 pm

Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:23 pm

Goedert wrote:I have found an article that explain such a meaning... See above:
The genuine meaning of Tathagata

Copyright 2007 Aryasatvan
This guy is an atma-vadin, who will twist whatever text he can to prove that the Buddha really truly taught an atman doctrine. He gone under a number different names, proclaimed himself, at one tome to being a bhikkhu and buddhologist.

The there is always this: http://www.tathagata.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But for a bit solid understanding of the term, there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: "Thou art that"

Post by Goedert » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:31 pm

Thanks tilt, your answer clarified my doubts.

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