Vinaya rules

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Future Bhikkhu
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Vinaya rules

Post by Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:06 am

I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?
The mind is everything; what you think you become.
-The Buddha

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retrofuturist
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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:57 am

Greetings,
Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?
Given the different number of rules that exist in different Buddhist ordination lineages, I suspect the latter is more likely. Bear in mind though that the Sangha never asked which 'minor rules' could be abandoned, so there are some that even prevailed at the time of the Buddha, which he would not necessarily decree for use in the 21st century.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?
Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... guide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a guide.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 am

Greetings Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote:Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.
Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.
So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:22 am

Greetings Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.
What I mean is that the Vinaya has commentary, much like the Sutta has commentary. The explanatory stories behind the Dhammapada verses are commentary, so the explanatory stories behind the Vinaya rules may or may not be commentary... I don't know. Maybe someone more au fait with the Vinaya could confirm either way.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Vinaya rules

Post by Euclid » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 am

Because this thread seems as good a place as any to ask: is there anything in the vinaya specifically preventing the Sangha from adding new rules to the patimokkha?

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