are animals that kill reborn in hell?

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:59 pm

I was thinking along the same lines as Ben. While I have concern about the future of my cats, I can't do much to prevent them from being cats. But I can do all I can to try not to be reborn in the woeful states.
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octathlon
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by octathlon » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:40 am

Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by plwk » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:36 am

Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?
They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by ground » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:55 am

budo wrote:Do the animals that kill, such as lions,tigers,snakes,scorpions,sharks,crocodiles,eagles,hawks,hyenas,etc.. are they reborn in hell?
If there would be a "deed as such" that would be the cause to be reborn in hell then yes, but it is the mental context of deeds that is crucial. And since humans do not know the mental context of other species the consequences of deeds of animals are hidded for humans. Even the consequences of deeds of humans would be hidden for humans if the Buddha would not have taught them.
The Buddha's teachings refer to the sphere of humans (not animals). Why? Because he taught the means for humans to liberate themselves.

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by budo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:58 am

plwk wrote:
Is a cat that is kept indoors or otherwise prevented from killing animals better off than a cat that is left outside where it will naturally do so?
They will still smack the cockroaches, lizards, ants, spiders and occasionally the other dog/cat that doesn't comply with the TOS :tongue:
So if animals are allowed to kill animals without much karmic consequence because it's merely instinct and not intent, then would it be okay to have a few cats around to protect humans from pests or dangerous critters?

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:19 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Ben » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:53 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear friends,

I guess it is always a question of intention. Killing out of fear, never taught or understood an other way (beware of excuses and back doors that "higher" beings like to use) ... I guess that stays neutral. It also has to do with the emotion that drives to such an act.

_/\_
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Taco » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:01 am

budo wrote:So if animals are allowed to kill animals without much karmic consequence because it's merely instinct and not intent, then would it be okay to have a few cats around to protect humans from pests or dangerous critters?
It might be okay for the cats, but I'm not sure about the owner...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#prec2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A second important point to note is that killing need not occur directly through the body. The volition to take life can also express itself through the door of speech. This means that the command to take life, given to others by way of words, writing, or gesture, is also considered a case of killing. One who issues such a command becomes responsible for the action as soon as it achieves its intention of depriving a being of life.

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:07 am

are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Image

Image

Probably not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:27 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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tiltbillings
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:32 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

it could happen to this fox, I carefully tried to explain it four month.
Could, assuming there is a hell, but why would a fox go to hell when it trying to feed its young?
But normally a fox would not realize the mouse as a sentiment being, so he follows mostly his fear to survive. It is all a question of judgment, which less exists in an animal. As long there is no knowledge and there is no ill-will behind it would not lead to a action that turns us a step down.
I don't think you are in place to judge another's kamma.
I think it is different when a fox is fighting an other fox, I guess for a fox there is enough empathy so it could be different in that issue.
You are now just making up things.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Hanzze
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:36 pm

Ohh it was a jackal
Once upon a time while Brahmadatta was king of Benares, the Bodhisatta came into the world as a young Lion in the region of Himalaya. Of the same family there were some younger brothers, and one sister; and all of them lived in a Golden Cave.

Now hard by this cave was a cave of Crystal on a silver hill, where a jackal lived. By and by the Lions lost their parents by the stroke of death. Then they used to leave the Lioness, their sister, behind in the cave, while they ranged for food; which when they obtained, they would bring it back for her to eat.

Now the Jackal had caught sight of this Lioness, and fell in love with her; but while the old Lion and Lioness lived, he could win no access. Now, when the seven brothers went to seek food, out he came from his Crystal Cave, and made all haste to the golden Cave, where taking, his stand before the young Lioness, he addressed her slily with these seductive and tempting words:

"O Lioness, I am a fourfoot creature, and so are you. Therefore do you be my mate, and I will be your husband! We will live together in friendship and amity, and you shall love me always!"

Now on hearing this the Lioness thought to herself, "This Jackal here is mean amongst beasts, vile, and like a man of low caste: but I am esteemed to be one of royal issue. That he to me should so speak is unseemly and evil. How can I live after hearing such things said? I will hold my breath until I shall die." Then, bethinking her awhile, "Nay," quoth she, "to die so would not be comely. My brothers will soon be home again; I will tell them first, and then I will put an end to myself."

The Jackal, finding that no answer came, felt sure she cared nothing for him; so back he went to his Crystal Cave, and lay down in much misery.

Now one of the young Lions, having killed a buffalo, or an elephant, or what not, himself ate some of it, and brought back a share for his sister, which he gave her, inviting her to eat. "No, brother," says she, "not a bite will I eat; for I must die!" "Why must that be?" he asked. And she told him what had happened. "Where is this Jackal now?" he asked. She saw him lying in the Crystal Cave, and thinking he was up in the sky, she said, "Why, brother, cannot you see him there on Silver Mountain, lying up in the sky?" The young Lion, unaware that the Jackal lay in a Crystal Cave, and deeming that he was truly in the sky, made a spring, as lions do, to kill him, and struck against the crystal: which burst his heart asunder, and falling to the foot of the mountain, he perished straightway. Then came in another, to whom the Lioness told the same tale. This Lion did even as the first, and fell dead by the mountain foot.

When six of the brother Lions had perished in this way, last of all entered the Bodhisatta. When she had told her story, he enquired where was the Jackal now? "There he is," said she, "up in the sky, above Silver Mountain!" The Bodhisatta thought "Jackals lying in the sky? Nonsense. I know what it is: he is lying in a Crystal Cave." So he repaired to the mountain's foot, and there he saw his six brothers lying dead. "I see how it is," thought he; these were all foolish, and lacked the fullness of wisdom; not knowing that this is the Crystal Cave, they beat their hearts out against it, and were killed. This is what comes of acting in rashness without due reflection;" and he repeated the first stanza:-

"Who rashly undertakes an enterprise,

Not counting all the issue may arise,

Like one who burns his mouth in eating food

Falls victim to the plans he did devise."
After repeating these lines, the Lion continued: "My brothers wanted to kill this Jackal, but knew not how to lay their plans cleverly; So they leapt up too quickly at him, and so came by their death. This will not do; but I will make the Jackal burst his own heart as he lies there in the Crystal Cave." So he espied out the path whereby the Jackal used to go up and down, and turning that way he roared thrice the lions' roar, that earth and heaven together were all one great roaring! The Jackal lying in the Crystal Cave was frightened and astounded, so that his heart burst; and he perished on the spot incontinently.
This story contains not all, but at the end THE MORAL: "Follish thought bring disaster"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:40 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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tiltbillings
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:46 pm

Hanzze wrote:..."
But really has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: are animals that kill reborn in hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:48 pm

Hanzze wrote:
Could, assuming there is a hell, but why would a fox go to hell when it trying to feed its young?
Just feeding there young would not lead to hell, but thought more than feeding and survive.
I suppose when those foxes look at fox porngraphy they are on their way to hell.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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