All compounded phenomena are suffering??

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clw_uk
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:08 pm

kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote: If there is no problem then its not hard to bear
Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.


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mikenz66
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:09 am

Dear Members. Please note that this thread is the Classical Theravada Forum. Any discussion should be backed up by material from the Tipitika and/or Commentaries.

:focus:
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Sacha G
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Sacha G » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:02 am

Hi,
I suggest to remember the case of the arhats committing suicide (sorry I don't have the reference here) tends to prove that physical pain is suffering, even for the arhat.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:45 am

rowyourboat wrote: Furthermore everything in existence falls into one of the five aggregates (or should I say can be classified under one..). Anything which is impermanent, is unsatisfactory and in turn is not self -so this includes all of the five aggregates.
I'm not sure.

1. In V. 278 of the Dhammapada we have "sabbe sankhara dukkha ti", which I believe translates as "all conditioned phenomena are unsatisfactory".

2. Then in SN 56.11 the practical scope of dukkha is enumerated: "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I wonder if in (1) dukkha is being applied in a generic sense, while in (2) dukkha is being described in a "personal" sense, ie relating to the person specifically rather than all phenomena generally?

Spiny

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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:37 pm

clw_uk wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote: If there is no problem then its not hard to bear
Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.


Depends on ones wisdom
What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"Then with blood running from his injured head, with his bowl broken, and with his patchwork robe torn, the venerable Angulimala went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming, and he told him: "Bear it, brahmana, bear it, brahmana! You have experienced here and now the ripening of kamma whose ripening you might have experienced in hell over many a year, many a century, many a millennium.""

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"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:07 pm

kirk5a wrote:What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"
Perhaps with panna this kind of dukkha can be borne?

Spiny

rowyourboat
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:39 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: Furthermore everything in existence falls into one of the five aggregates (or should I say can be classified under one..). Anything which is impermanent, is unsatisfactory and in turn is not self -so this includes all of the five aggregates.
I'm not sure.

1. In V. 278 of the Dhammapada we have "sabbe sankhara dukkha ti", which I believe translates as "all conditioned phenomena are unsatisfactory".

2. Then in SN 56.11 the practical scope of dukkha is enumerated: "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I wonder if in (1) dukkha is being applied in a generic sense, while in (2) dukkha is being described in a "personal" sense, ie relating to the person specifically rather than all phenomena generally?

Spiny
Hi Spiny

You might want to read up around the 5 aggregates and see if they contain within them everything in samsara or not.

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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:13 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
kirk5a wrote:What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"
Perhaps with panna this kind of dukkha can be borne?

Spiny
Angulimala was already an arahant at that point, according to the retelling I read. So he certainly had panna, and he did bear that dukkha.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:32 am

rowyourboat wrote:You might want to read up around the 5 aggregates and see if they contain within them everything in samsara or not.
Not a bad idea, as this is something I'm still not clear about. ;)

Spiny

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