All compounded phenomena are suffering??

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pt1
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by pt1 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:44 am

Sylvester wrote:But that still leaves the problem of the anupadana khandha, which remain as "compounded" dhammas. What sort of suffering persists when clinging and identity have all ceased in an Arahant?
Interesting. Though, if an arahat has a conditioned dhamma as an object of consciousness, would the wisdom mental factor that arises at the time not be able to tell the dukkha characteristic of the object (conditioned dhamma)? Or its anatta characteristic for that matter? Importantly though, there'd be no clinging arising in respect of the object of consciousness either way.

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rowyourboat
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by rowyourboat » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:30 am

'compounded' (sankata) or 'fabricated' refers to anything which arises and passes away. That is anything which is impermanent. Nibbana is the only thing which is 'un-compounded' (asankata).

Furthermore everything in existence falls into one of the five aggregates (or should I say can be classified under one..). Anything which is impermanent, is unsatisfactory and in turn is not self -so this includes all of the five aggregates.

There are no satisfactory aggregates.

The idea of vinnana of a nibbanic moment is debatable and IMO just wrong on many levels!

The idea that Nibbana can be commented upon (as anatta etc) except in the negative (no sun, no moon etc) is also just word play and playing with logic (which doesnt imply the Truth) IMO.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Sacha G
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Sacha G » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:53 pm

Hi Matheesha
you wrote
There are no satisfactory aggregates.
Then why distinguish between aggregates and "clinging aggregates" and say "clinging aggregates are dukkha"?
:coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rowyourboat
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:17 am

Sacha G wrote:Hi Matheesha
you wrote
There are no satisfactory aggregates.
Then why distinguish between aggregates and "clinging aggregates" and say "clinging aggregates are dukkha"?
:coffee:
SN 22.59 PTS: S iii 66 CDB i 901
Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1993–2011
Alternate translations: Ñanamoli | Mendis
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the group of five monks, through not clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:36 am

rowyourboat wrote:
SN 22.59 PTS: S iii 66 CDB i 901
Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)
translated from the Pali byThanissaro Bhikkhu

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released.
In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny

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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote: In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny
Mental dukkha ceases right there, physical dukkha ceases at parinibbana. What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:46 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny
Mental dukkha ceases right there, physical dukkha ceases at parinibbana. What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.
That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:21 pm

rowyourboat wrote:
That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

With metta

Matheesha
Hi Matheesha, thanks for that. So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that stream entry requires the "non-experience" where absolutely all phenomena cease to appear? And if so, then, for one doing "in-depth vipassana" what would you say allows for the transition from focusing on impermanent phenomena, to the cessation of all phenomena?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny
What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.
Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

Spiny

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:51 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote: Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

Spiny
Yes, that is the arising of mental dukkha. Taking what is inconstant to be constant. But if we break an arm, that physical dukkha isn't because of that misperception, it's just the basic physical reaction of the body to injury. Then we can compound that suffering with aversion. As long as there's a body there will be physical dukkha no matter how awakened we get. That's what I'm seeing in the suttas.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:59 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

Spiny
Yes, that is the arising of mental dukkha. Taking what is inconstant to be constant. But if we break an arm, that physical dukkha isn't because of that misperception, it's just the basic physical reaction of the body to injury. Then we can compound that suffering with aversion. As long as there's a body there will be physical dukkha no matter how awakened we get. That's what I'm seeing in the suttas.


There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:

There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable
"Problems" are mental creations. So, no problem. But physical sensations of all kinds are still that which the Buddha sought an ultimate end to - parinibbana.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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clw_uk
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:52 pm

kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable
"Problems" are mental creations. So, no problem. But physical sensations of all kinds are still that which the Buddha sought an ultimate end to - parinibbana.


If there is no problem then its not hard to bear

If there is no problem then its not really suffering, just a sensation. Its just called "painful, suffering" etc because of the wordly way to describe things, like when Buddha said "I am ..."
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kirk5a
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:00 pm

clw_uk wrote: If there is no problem then its not hard to bear
Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:
That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

With metta

Matheesha
Hi Matheesha, thanks for that. So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that stream entry requires the "non-experience" where absolutely all phenomena cease to appear? And if so, then, for one doing "in-depth vipassana" what would you say allows for the transition from focusing on impermanent phenomena, to the cessation of all phenomena?
Yes, absolutely.

See the bit on 'Path knowledge' here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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