The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

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kirk5a
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:02 pm

Vepacitta wrote:
updana - taking upon onself - taking towards oneself - holding to oneself - taking up
:twothumbsup: excellent thanks
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:24 pm

acinteyyo wrote: Pain is still dukkha, wheather it belongs to clinging-aggregates or aggregates, doesn't matter. It's dukkha because it's impermanent and not-self.
Is physical pain dukkha because it's impermanent and not-self, or is it because we are averse to unpleasant feeling ( vedana )? In other words is physical pain is a source of dukkha because of our clinging / attachment to pleasant feeling ( vedana )?
So if clinging to ( pleasant ) vedana ceases, does the dukkha arising from physical pain also cease?

Spiny

PeterB
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by PeterB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:34 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Sacha,
Sacha G wrote:Hi there!
I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?
:coffee:
Evidently, the difference is the English word 'Clinging'.

The explanation in Culavedalla sutta, in the English translation:

"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

leaves the question on how 'clinging' relates to 'self-identification'.

This discrepancy in this and other suttas gets clarified when we return to the meaning of Pali word 'upadana' in this case as 'appropriation':

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5560" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"upādānakkhandhā" are "aggregates that are appropriated".

Appropriation (upadana) here is inseparable from the five aggregates, as Culavedalla sutta explains:

Taññeva nu kho, ayye, upādānaṃ te pañcupādānakkhandhā udāhu aññatra pañcahupādānakkhandhehi upādāna’’nti? ‘‘Na kho, āvuso visākha, taññeva upādānaṃ te pañcupādānakkhandhā, nāpi aññatra pañcahupādānakkhandhehi upādānaṃ. Yo kho, āvuso visākha, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṃ tattha upādāna’’nti

"Is it the case, lady, that clinging (upadana) is the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates or is it something separate?"

"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."

"But, lady, how does self-identification come about?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note here again the discrepancy between "that is the clinging there" and "how does self-identification come about".

Metta, Dmytro
An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:58 pm

PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.
What's your point?

Spiny

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:05 pm

Dmytro wrote: "Is it the case, lady, that clinging (upadana) is the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates or is it something separate?"
"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."
Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?

Spiny

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Dmytro » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:28 pm

Hi Spiny,
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?
IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.

Dmytro

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?
IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.

Dmytro
Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?

"Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."

I assume that "desire and passion" here express tanha, in which case it appears to be describing the relevant section of dependent origination.

Spiny

PeterB
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by PeterB » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:08 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.
What's your point?

Spiny
Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ? my point I would have thought was fairly clear, it was to thank Dymtro for HIS point..

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 pm

PeterB wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.
What's your point?

Spiny
Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ?
I confess I often don't understand the point you are making.

Spiny

PeterB
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by PeterB » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:23 pm

Its a problem isnt it ?

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:34 am

PeterB wrote:Its a problem isnt it ?
Communicating clearly isn't always easy on these forums. :smile:

Spiny

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Dmytro
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Dmytro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?

"Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."
I don't find such suggestion in the section you quoted.

I assume that "desire and passion" here express tanha, in which case it appears to be describing the relevant section of dependent origination.

There's a section which expresses something similar:
"'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.

Dmytro

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:03 pm

Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.
I think we're in agreement on that.

Spiny

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:19 pm

Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.
I came across this passage in SN 22 today, it seems to describe the way in which clinging to the aggregates is overcome:

"But friend, the instructed noble disciple..does not regard form as self.
...He does not become engaged with form, cling to it, and does not take a stand on it as "my self".. ( and the same for the other 4 aggregates )
These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling, lead to his well-being and happiness for a long time."

Spiny

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:10 pm

Khandha Sutta: Aggregates
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form.

"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of feeling.

"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of perception.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications.

"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of consciousness.

"These are called the five aggregates.

"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever perception — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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