Celibacy

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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phil
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Re: Celebacy

Post by phil »

dhammapal wrote:See: Sex, Celibacy and the Spiritual Life by Bhante Gunaratana

I started masturbating again then realized that taking that to its logical conclusion would lead to seeking out pornography which would increase lust.

With metta / dhammapal.
Hi Dhammapal and all

It's possible to masturbate without pornography or fantasizing. It's an interesting experience, actually, de-sexualizes the build-up to orgasm and the orgasm itself, turns it into a physiological experience more akin to urinating or defecating than it is to seeing fireworks. Very refreshing (afterwards) experience, actually, not as mentallly "sticky" as it is usually. You feel that you are rising above the whole carnal entanglement in a way.

Obviously the Buddha didn't teach celibacy to householders, but if we are in a situation (and they do occur) when it is not possible to have sex in a way that would not be against the precepts, or would not blur the line in a way that is technically not mentionned in the precepts but which we know is against our morality (e.g going to prostitutes, or engaging in emotional dishonesty in order to get laid, not outright lying but, you know....) celibacy becomes the necessary option. In such cases, it would be a big mistake not to masturbate, I think, bad for the body (especially the prostate for men, I don't know about for women) bad for the mind because the frustrated sex energy works its way one way or the other. (As for the vinaya, that's another matter I guess.) But it is physically possible and intellectually interesting to wank without the revery...try it, it's a totally non thrilling experience and good for the health! :thumbsup:

Metta,

Phil

p.s if it is not possible to wank without the fantasy and/or pornography, I would say you had better wank. The middle way says we shouldn't damage our health for the sake of the practice and research shows that the risk of prostate cancer increases when the testicles are not flushed out periodically. Again, don't know for the ladies....
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
nobody12345
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Re: Celibacy

Post by nobody12345 »

manasikara wrote:My attempts at finding a 'middle way' of enjoying sexual pleasure 'moderately' have always ended in failure. In my mind, the whole idea of pleasure is to maximize it, not to stingily give it to myself in little drips. So I have found that I tend towards sexual obsession, trying to squeeze more and more pleasure out of this slowly ageing sack of blood, flesh and bones.

In order to free myself, for the sake of my own welfare (possibly sanity), I am undertaking a period of total abstinence, not just from the act but also from self-pleasuring, and as much as possible I guard my mind against letting lust invade it. As a lay person this is very hard and sometimes EXCRUCIATING work. It can feel like torture. And self-made suffering it is: the harder I hold on to the memories of past pleaure, the more it hurts! So I have to resort to using whatever wisdom I can muster to keep going. This often happens with me in tears at the end of the day. Here is a benefit though: I feel lighter, more peaceful (when I am not undergoing a 'test' of my resolve), and it is easier to practise meditation.
Greetings.
Nice to know a lay person who is walking the same path as myself!
I am also undertaking a totoal abstinence.
For years and years, I enjoyed sex and sexual activities everyday basis.
When I decided to be really serious about the pursuit of this path, I had to break up with (then) my girl friend and quit all the sexual activities all together.
As you said, it can be unbearably painful (I enjoyed sex for almost 2 decades daily basis) but this is something that I feel absolutely important even if it tortures me tremendously.
Especailly when someone is really serious about the pursuit of the higher goal (Anagami for a lay person/ Arahant for a monk) then, this is necessary measure in my opinion.
Congratulations on your struggle because nothing is more important than conquering the bond that ties us to this endless Samsara!
In Metta.
Last edited by nobody12345 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Anicca
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Re: Celebacy

Post by Anicca »

Shonin wrote:
manasikara wrote:It has more to do with being physically present and available on a daily basis to help them grow to maturity, and less to do with them being materially / financially looked after. Money can't buy a genuine hug, for instance.
I completely agree. I would go further and say that abandoning a wife and/or child who depended on you (materially or emotionally) for the purpose of trying to end your own suffering is self-indulgent. What about their suffering?
I am not disagreeing, but it is of interest to me the discrepancy that the Buddha refuses ordination to those whose parents do not agree, yet his did not agree. He abandoned his parents against their wishes and abandoned his wife and child (if not monetarily for they were rich- at least emotionally) for the purpose of ending his own suffering. If it was good for him, good for his parents, good for his wife and child and good for all the world - perhaps self-indulgence is really all we do whether we leave the home life or stay - we are all indulging in our "self".

???

metta
nobody12345
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Re: Celebacy

Post by nobody12345 »

manasikara wrote:Hi all, I'm posting here cos I am in a hurry and don't know where else to post...I wonder if any other householder experimenting with complete sexual abstinence has found that just when they have begun to taste some higher pleasure in meditation, just when they feel like they have had a GLIMPSE of what it is like to let go of the five-sense world obsession for a little while and experience a relatively still mind (and taste the sweetness of this), suddenly the defilement of lust takes a big swipe at you. Today I'm assailed by strong doubt re the higher aspects of the doctrine (stuff that I should not ponder on at this stage, but mara uses this to get me down often), and now for the first time in over a week sensual desire seems to be CALLING me! Just when I have been feeling like I have made more progress in calming the mind than ever before in this current lifetime.

This might not be the right forum for a sob story like mine. But I hope someone can advise, can a deep darkness stand on the edge of a brightness? Just when I felt some sweetness in letting go, should lust come and assail me like this? Should I press onward, or am I pressing too hard?
You are not alone my friend because the desire calls and attacks me day and night.
Regarding your question, if you want an advice, I will give you what I use to deal with it.
While meditate, I imagine dung and urine are explosively pouring out from women's body.
And I am imagining that I am drowing in the sea of dung and urine suffering and crying in agony while our arch enemy Mara is laughing his ass off watching me drowing in the sea of dung and urine.
Also I forcefully repeat myself in my head that 'I will NOT die as a slave of Mara. I will not come back to existence over and over and over and over again for the sake of sex. I will crush Mara and wipe out the smug smile from his face'.
This how I deal with attacks of sexual craving.
Hope this helps.
In Metta.
nobody12345
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Re: Celebacy

Post by nobody12345 »

manasikara wrote:Thereductor,
thank you for your thoughtful reply, once more. That sutta quote is great, I've not seen it before.

I'm going to leave off this subject after this post, because I DID end up lapsing, but I have learned SO MUCH from the last week and a half of trying out complete sexual abstinece (in all its forms) that I am indeed realizing that I have no need to beat myself up, I am after all a householder and I have not broken any precepts (by lapsing in this way)! My mind got a bit obsessed with trying to be perfect, and I think I was 'tightening the strings a little too tightly'. Having said that, that doesn't mean I think it's ok to just relieve ourselves soon as the going gets a little tough, I think we should push a little further than what we think we are capable of, but not to the point of obsessiveness.
I have just read this post.
(I posted two replies on your previous posts).
Well, celebacy is definitely not for everyone.
Whatever you do, I hope you make spiritual breakthrough with your practice routine.
In Metta.
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manas
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Re: Celebacy

Post by manas »

imaginos wrote: Well, celebacy is definitely not for everyone.
Whatever you do, I hope you make spiritual breakthrough with your practice routine.
In Metta.
Hi Imaginos,
thank you so much for your kind supportiveness. I have actually had a LONG break from properly trying to abstain from orgasm. I found that the journey got too gut wrenching. I've got enough emotional pain already.

Ironically (or maybe it's no coincidence?) I log in here after ages and find your posts. I decided recently to have another go at practicing a bit of freedom from enslavement to the big O. I've now abstained from orgasm for about four days, and the 'burning' is here; sex desire isn't just this mental longing, it's not just in my groin area, there is a tingling spread throughout my whole darn body.

I'm not complaining this time, nor asking for sympathy, cos this is EVERY normal man's lot in life. Lol. But I have an observation. We get a choice of how to suffer. Endure the pain of mindfully watching your body burn with lust; or endure the pain of being so depleted of brain juice that you can hardly muster the mindfulness to really penetrate anything deeply, because all of your energy just shot out of your penis. I'm sorry to be so blunt.

I'm currently doing the former. 'Burning, burning..."

I'm not making any predictions as to how long I will last. Lol I'm just an average guy. Either way it's going to be tough. "Choose your pain" as I said before.

Mettafully. :)
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Kenshou
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Re: Celebacy

Post by Kenshou »

Keep your determination, Manasikara! There's no quick fix for this one. Well, there is, but you wouldn't like it.

You are an ox at the yoke, being whipped around by that desire. You don't want to put up with that crap, tell it to buzz off, you've got better things to do. Be stubborn, don't give Mara the pleasure of engaging that craving, and it will pass.

But of course it's easier said than done and it will probably need to be "overcome" over and over in the course of the day... enjoy.
nobody12345
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Re: Celebacy

Post by nobody12345 »

manasikara wrote:
imaginos wrote: Well, celebacy is definitely not for everyone.
Whatever you do, I hope you make spiritual breakthrough with your practice routine.
In Metta.
Hi Imaginos,
thank you so much for your kind supportiveness. I have actually had a LONG break from properly trying to abstain from orgasm. I found that the journey got too gut wrenching. I've got enough emotional pain already.

Ironically (or maybe it's no coincidence?) I log in here after ages and find your posts. I decided recently to have another go at practicing a bit of freedom from enslavement to the big O. I've now abstained from orgasm for about four days, and the 'burning' is here; sex desire isn't just this mental longing, it's not just in my groin area, there is a tingling spread throughout my whole darn body.

I'm not complaining this time, nor asking for sympathy, cos this is EVERY normal man's lot in life. Lol. But I have an observation. We get a choice of how to suffer. Endure the pain of mindfully watching your body burn with lust; or endure the pain of being so depleted of brain juice that you can hardly muster the mindfulness to really penetrate anything deeply, because all of your energy just shot out of your penis. I'm sorry to be so blunt.

I'm currently doing the former. 'Burning, burning..."

I'm not making any predictions as to how long I will last. Lol I'm just an average guy. Either way it's going to be tough. "Choose your pain" as I said before.

Mettafully. :)
'Choose your pain' sounds like a good summary of our existence.
No matter who we are, no matter how fortunate we maybe, the essence of our existence is pain/suffering/Dukkha.
And sensual craving is something we have to bear/suffer until we reach the stage of Anagami.
Hang in there.
Everything takes time.
Even if you can't handle it perfectly, all the attempts and struggles are not in vain in a long run.
We are fighting the war with Mara so it can't be easy.
It's a miserable situation but the Deathless is a goal worth all the trouble.
In Metta.
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manas
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Re: Celebacy

Post by manas »

Kenshou wrote:Keep your determination, Manasikara! There's no quick fix for this one. Well, there is, but you wouldn't like it.

You are an ox at the yoke, being whipped around by that desire. You don't want to put up with that crap, tell it to buzz off, you've got better things to do. Be stubborn, don't give Mara the pleasure of engaging that craving, and it will pass.

But of course it's easier said than done and it will probably need to be "overcome" over and over in the course of the day... enjoy.
Hi kenshou, I appreciate the reply, but you've got me curious...what was that 'quick fix' you said that I wouldn't like? I take it you were not referring to contemplation of the repusive aspects of the body, but something a bit more, shall we say, 'cutting edge' ? :lol:

I don't mind putting my hand up anymore as someone struggling with sex craving. I now realize how self-indulgent it was when I shed so many tears about it, because it isn't just 'my' struggle at all. It's a problem for almost everyone I know. From lonely single men up late on the internet, to married men working damn hard for it, to guys who 'play the field' risking STD's, and even worse feigning affection for the sake of sex. It's all a big mess, but I'm not alone! I guess sex is a problem for everyone except those anagamis...;)
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Moth
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Re: Celebacy

Post by Moth »

I have been using this technique for a few months and it has been working well (to quit masturbation). I'm using a Go board, but you can use anything really, to keep track of each day I am celibate. Each day I keep this precept I put a white stone on the board, however if I fail then I remove all the stones and am back to square one. At first I was able to build it up to a week, then I failed. After that two weeks, then failure, then three weeks, then a month, etc. Looking at a perfect month of white stones is something that feels very good, and further hinders me from throwing it all away just to watch pornography. Ultimately what helped me the most was failing. I once made it a month and then gave in and afterwards felt so awful, so shameful, that even recollecting that moment brings an end to my lust. Each failure feels worse and worse until the (false) pleasure of masturbation simply does not logically compare to the suffering that results as a consequence.

The key to success is stopping lustful thoughts at their root. All sexual acts are rooted in the mind and its fairly easy to witness how they arise. Think of it like this: Perhaps you see some external form that triggers the beginning of a lustful state, or perhaps you are daydreaming and your thoughts begin to lead towards sexual fantasy. At this stage the lust is like a seed sprouting, it is easy to walk away from. The moment you recognize this stage, the moment you recognize lust, you must walk away from it otherwise it will continue to grow. Say you entertain the thought, let it develop thinking it won't lead to anything. Now it has grown into a plant, an enticing, intoxicating plant that draws in your attention. Still, though it is more difficult, you can walk away. If, however, you continue to nurture it, it will quickly grow into a tree, then a forest of trees, and before you know it you're trapped, there's no way out--except through orgasm. Thus, it is crucial not to entertain lustful thoughts, and not to dwell, even for a moment, in states of arousal.

Eventually, once you are away from it for awhile, you become peaceful, serene, much like it felt to be a kid, and the joy of celibacy becomes far more valuable than the sensual pleasure of lust. The idea is not to restrain your actions, this solves nothing. The idea is to restrain your mind. You must work with your thoughts, discarding all lustful ones, recognizing "this will lead to my suffering, the suffering of others, and the suffering of both. This will lead me away from Nibbana." Do not identify with your thoughts, watch them arise and cease remembering always, "this is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself."

So ultimately these are the four things that helped me: 1) Pride in my accomplishment, 2) The shame of failure, 3) Restraint in my thought, 4) The joy of celibacy. I hope this helps.
Last edited by Moth on Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering.
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nobody12345
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Re: Celebacy

Post by nobody12345 »

Moth wrote:I have been using this technique for a few months and it has been working well (to quit masturbation). I'm using a Go board, but you can use anything really, to keep track of each day I am celibate. Each day I keep this precept I put a white stone on the board, however if I fail then I remove all the stones and am back to square one. At first I was able to build it up to a week, then I failed. After that two weeks, then failure, then three weeks, then a month, etc. Looking at a perfect month of white stones is something that feels very good, and further hinders me from throwing it all away just to watch pornography. Ultimately what helped me the most was failing. I once made it a month and then gave in and afterwards felt so awful, so shameful, that even recollecting that moment brings an end to my lust. Each failure feels worse and worse until the (false) pleasure of masturbation simply does not logically compare to the suffering that results as a consequence.

The key to success is stopping lustful thoughts at their root. All sexual acts are rooted in the mind and its fairly easy to witness how they arise. Think of it like this: Perhaps you see some external form that triggers the beginning of a lustful state, or perhaps you are daydreaming and your thoughts begin to lead towards sexual fantasy. At this stage the lust is like a seed sprouting, it is easy to walk away from. The moment you recognize this stage, the moment you recognize lust, you must walk away from it otherwise it will continue to grow. Say you entertain the thought, let it develop thinking it won't lead to anything. Now it has grown into a plant, an enticing, intoxicating plant that draws in your attention. Still, thought it is more difficult, you can walk away. If, however, you continue to nurture it, it will quickly grow into a tree, then a forest of trees, and before you know it you're trapped, there's no way out--except through orgasm. Thus, it is crucial not to entertain lustful thoughts, and not to dwell, even for a moment, in states of arousal.

Eventually, once you are away from it for awhile, you become peaceful, serene, much like it felt to be a kid, and the joy of celibacy becomes far more valuable than the sensual pleasure of lust. The idea is not to restrain your actions, this solves nothing. The idea is to restrain your mind. You must work with your thoughts, discarding all lustful ones, recognizing "this will lead to my suffering, the suffering of others, and the suffering of both. This will lead me away from Nibbana." Do not identify with your thoughts, watch them arise and cease remembering always, "this is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself."

So ultimately these are the four things that helped me: 1) Pride in my accomplishment, 2) The shame of failure, 3) Restraint in my thought, 4) The joy of celibacy. I hope this helps.
Dear Moth.
Thank you so much for the wise advice.
Your approach is very thoughtful and well constructed.
It's a great gain for you (and for us as well) that you are making a big progress.
:bow:
Metta.
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ground
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Re: Celibacy

Post by ground »

Bhikkhus, when one attends carelessly, unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands ...
Bhikkhus, when one attends carefully, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness goes to fulfilment by development ...
SN46.35 (transl. by Bhikkhu Bodhi)


Kind regards
shjohnk
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Re: Celebacy

Post by shjohnk »

EricJ wrote:
thereductor wrote:One last piece of advice: if you masturbate, don't fantasize during the act. I've found that this works well for separating the tactile pleasures of sex from the other pleasures derived from the other sense facilities (ie -- eye, ear, nose, taste). It kind of drives a wedge into the lusty though processes.

Good luck.
I also find it helpful to [nonjudgmentally] notice how quickly the pleasure dissipates and how overrated it actually is. Sexuality, seems to me, to be a really drawn-out process based on some sort of expectation, resulting in a sensation which is underwhelming when compared to your idealized version of it. This observance engenders this thought in connection to sexual pleasure: "well, what was the point of that?" Sometimes, apathy is more effective than active resistance.

In the meantime, I try to keep in mind that sexual pleasure is something which is overcome gradually, as defilements are dismantled and the compounded and unsatisfactory nature of these sensations is realized. This thought has helped me to reign in some of my youthful sexual energy. :P

Regards,
Eric

I agree with both of you that the 'act' is oe we overrate and the actuality is underwhelming. The problem seems to be that the human (male????) mind seems preset to use every unmindful moment to fuel the fire so to speak :jumping: It's this 'super-heated' nature of sexual desire that is the addictive part, at least for me.

I think sometimes it's better to 'let it out' before the fantasies take control of your mind and you end up wasting ages getting horny. Just go and have a mechanical wank or bonk, realise how actually unfulfilling it all is, and then get back to mindfulness Hopefully the addiction will reduce as the practice grows :jedi:
Strive
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Re: Celebacy

Post by Strive »

Moth wrote:I have been using this technique for a few months and it has been working well (to quit masturbation). I'm using a Go board, but you can use anything really, to keep track of each day I am celibate. Each day I keep this precept I put a white stone on the board, however if I fail then I remove all the stones and am back to square one. At first I was able to build it up to a week, then I failed. After that two weeks, then failure, then three weeks, then a month, etc. Looking at a perfect month of white stones is something that feels very good, and further hinders me from throwing it all away just to watch pornography. Ultimately what helped me the most was failing. I once made it a month and then gave in and afterwards felt so awful, so shameful, that even recollecting that moment brings an end to my lust. Each failure feels worse and worse until the (false) pleasure of masturbation simply does not logically compare to the suffering that results as a consequence.

The key to success is stopping lustful thoughts at their root. All sexual acts are rooted in the mind and its fairly easy to witness how they arise. Think of it like this: Perhaps you see some external form that triggers the beginning of a lustful state, or perhaps you are daydreaming and your thoughts begin to lead towards sexual fantasy. At this stage the lust is like a seed sprouting, it is easy to walk away from. The moment you recognize this stage, the moment you recognize lust, you must walk away from it otherwise it will continue to grow. Say you entertain the thought, let it develop thinking it won't lead to anything. Now it has grown into a plant, an enticing, intoxicating plant that draws in your attention. Still, thought it is more difficult, you can walk away. If, however, you continue to nurture it, it will quickly grow into a tree, then a forest of trees, and before you know it you're trapped, there's no way out--except through orgasm. Thus, it is crucial not to entertain lustful thoughts, and not to dwell, even for a moment, in states of arousal.

Eventually, once you are away from it for awhile, you become peaceful, serene, much like it felt to be a kid, and the joy of celibacy becomes far more valuable than the sensual pleasure of lust. The idea is not to restrain your actions, this solves nothing. The idea is to restrain your mind. You must work with your thoughts, discarding all lustful ones, recognizing "this will lead to my suffering, the suffering of others, and the suffering of both. This will lead me away from Nibbana." Do not identify with your thoughts, watch them arise and cease remembering always, "this is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself."

So ultimately these are the four things that helped me: 1) Pride in my accomplishment, 2) The shame of failure, 3) Restraint in my thought, 4) The joy of celibacy. I hope this helps.
Thanks alot for this friend, Imma give this a try!
:anjali:
"Faith is here a man's best treasure;
Dhamma practised well brings happiness;
Truth is really the sweetest of tastes;
One living by wisdom they say lives best."--Bhikkhu Bodhi's Samyutta Nikaya, Sagathavagga verse 853
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