Agganna Sutta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nathan
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by nathan »

Jason wrote: ...recent observations of cosmic background radiation indicate the universe is actually expanding at an accelerated rate, hence there may not be any contraction or 'Big Crunch.'
I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time, therefore the universe is always expanding and always expanding at an accelerated rate. I don't really care if the universe is expanding or if it is slowly transforming from a zygote into a turtle, I'm just curious how it is that the shape of the thing over billions of years past and future is definitively derived from a relatively insignificant period of observation. Similarly, I don't see how indications of a period involving evolutionary processes implies nothing but continuous evolution and nothing of significance but evolutionary processes particularly when processes of devolution and other non-evolutionary processes appear to be as readily observable in real time as are processes of evolution. Thanks in advance.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time, therefore the universe is always expanding and always expanding at an accelerated rate.
At the moment the idea is that the force of expansion is greater than that of the attractive pull of gravity

Similarly, I don't see how indications of a period involving evolutionary processes implies nothing but continuous evolution and nothing of significance
Evolution is change in the characteristic of a species over time (until there is divergence into a new species)
but evolutionary processes particularly when processes of devolution
"devolution", what is that? In Biological terms?
and other non-evolutionary processes appear to be as readily observable in real time as are processes of evolution. Thanks in advance
Other processes?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
nathan
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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clw_uk wrote:
I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time, therefore the universe is always expanding and always expanding at an accelerated rate.
At the moment the idea is that the force of expansion is greater than that of the attractive pull of gravity

I understood this, that this is the thinking of some scientists at the moment. How does this latest impression of the universe at the moment demonstrate that the universe has been this way since whenever and will continue to be this way indefinitely?
Similarly, I don't see how indications of a period involving evolutionary processes implies nothing but continuous evolution and nothing of significance
Evolution is change in the characteristic of a species over time (until there is divergence into a new species)

Yeah, I get that, I've read the textbook stuff. How does evolution explain the bizarre gaps and leaps such as the rapid appearances of many new and diverse species so quickly after massive extinction events or the sudden appearance of humans of one kind or another given that, for instance, the disappearance of the jaw musculature that covers the head of the great apes involves many complex and wide ranging dna alterations, could not have occurred as a simple mutation and, apart from the end result of increased cranial capacity, as a series of incremental changes conveys no evolutionary advantages to an ape but rather in real terms would represent a series of significant disadvantages?
but evolutionary processes particularly when processes of devolution
"devolution", what is that? In Biological terms?

eg. Washington, Jefferson, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Bush...
and other non-evolutionary processes appear to be as readily observable in real time as are processes of evolution. Thanks in advance
Other processes?
Are you suggesting that evolution is the only observable process in nature? That's a new one.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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Nathan

I understood this, that this is the thinking of some scientists at the moment. How does this latest impression of the universe at the moment demonstrate that the universe has been this way since whenever and will continue to be this way indefinitely?
I dont think anyone has said it has, the main issue has actually been evolution

Yeah, I get that, I've read the textbook stuff. How does evolution explain the bizarre gaps and leaps such as the rapid appearances of many new and diverse species so quickly after massive extinction events or the sudden appearance of humans of one kind or another given that, for instance, the disappearance of the jaw musculature that covers the head of the great apes involves many complex and wide ranging dna alterations, could not have occurred as a simple mutation and apart from cranial capacity conveys no evolutionary advantage to an ape?

Well firstly only a small fraction of animals become fossilised. However within evolutionary biology there is the theory of punctuated equilibrium.

Sudden appearance of humans?


Why couldnt it be? It is also worth remembering that humans and the other great apes share a common ancestor and are not one straight line


Cranial capacity increase has many theories

eg. Washington, Jefferson, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, Bush...

I repeat, what is devolution in BIOLOGICAL terms


Are you suggesting that evolution is the only observable process in nature? That's a new one.
No, its just your statement was so nebulous it was difficult seeing what your point was
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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Hi Nathan,
nathan wrote:
Jason wrote: ...recent observations of cosmic background radiation indicate the universe is actually expanding at an accelerated rate, hence there may not be any contraction or 'Big Crunch.'
I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time,....
The apparent accelerated expansion hinges more on observations of supernovas in distant galaxies. We can easily measure their speed relative to us (by the Doppler shift of the radiation). For certain supernovas there are good models on what their absolute brightness is (as a function of how fast the supernova decays). That allows us to estimate their distance, because we can measure their brightness and compare that with their absolute brightness. With their distance we know how old they are (because light takes billions of years to get here from there). This allows us to work how fast galaxies are receding at various distances, and therefore various times.

[You can perhaps think of it as seeing the flashes of the brake lights of cars driving away from you and estimating how far they are by the relative brightness of the lights. You know that all Toyotas have the same brake lights so you just use that data. ]

Now, the problem is that there are all kinds of uncertainties in these measurements, most obviously the amount of dust in the distant galaxies and the amount of dust between us an them (which would obviously mess up the distance estimate). [So, now we're on a foggy street trying to figure out the brightness of those lights...] The people working on this do all kinds of clever stuff to reduce the uncertainty, but the data is far from clear cut.

As for the Gurzadyan and Penrose paper, my impression is that not many take that seriously. It seems to rely on looking at a small bump in the cosmic microwave data and making a mountain out of it. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 18#p102407" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd like to emphasise that this is an active area of research, with new models and data coming and going. That's the nature of scientific research, it's all about figuring out new stuff. It would be boring if we knew all the answers!

:anjali:
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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tiltbillings wrote:First of all this is a debate. No onre here is saying naughty things about your mother, so I would suggest that you not tie yourself up in knots over this, but that is your choice. There is always something to be learned from this sort of thing, and one of the things this sort of debate offers is a chance to learn how to express yourself with some degree of clarity. Also, there is always someoine who knows more than you do.

As for being a "conservative Theravadin," fine. There are a fair few here. What is interesting is that as one moves through the Dhamma over the years, whether you want to or not, you will redefine things for yourself, which is as it should be. Beliefs are tools and experiences can be illuminating, but we can also fool ourselves all to easily based upon our beliefs and our experiences. It is a balancing act that is well worth the effort. No need to apologize; just relax a little.
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"What holds attention determines action." - William James
nathan
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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clw_uk wrote:
No, its just your statement was so nebulous it was difficult seeing what your point was
I don't have a point. Now I properly understand. You don't have a point either.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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nathan wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
No, its just your statement was so nebulous it was difficult seeing what your point was
I don't have a point. Now I properly understand. You don't have a point either.

Such a pointless post, seriously what is the point in posting something that has no point and ineptly attacking my post with no basis to support yourself?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
nathan
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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mikenz66 wrote: The apparent accelerated expansion hinges more on observations of supernovas in distant galaxies...
Mike
Thank you for the clarifications Mikenz66. That read like science as opposed to previous comments which read much more like scientism.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
nathan
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by nathan »

clw_uk wrote:
nathan wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
No, its just your statement was so nebulous it was difficult seeing what your point was
I don't have a point. Now I properly understand. You don't have a point either.

Such a pointless post, seriously what is the point in posting something that has no point and ineptly attacking my post with no basis to support yourself?
You tell me.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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nathan wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: The apparent accelerated expansion hinges more on observations of supernovas in distant galaxies...
Mike
Thank you for the clarifications Mikenz66. That read like science as opposed to previous comments which read much more like scientism.


I am not a professional in Biology I have only just started studying a degree in it, coupled with a personal hobby in studying it, so I may not have been able to answer you as fully as mike has done

Craig - Such a pointless post, seriously what is the point in posting something that has no point and ineptly attacking my post with no basis to support yourself?

Nathan - You tell me.
It was a question to you
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

...or the sudden appearance of humans of one kind or another given that, for instance, the disappearance of the jaw musculature that covers the head of the great apes involves many complex and wide ranging dna alterations, could not have occurred as a simple mutation
"simple mutation" isnt all there is in Evolution
and, apart from the end result of increased cranial capacity, as a series of incremental changes conveys no evolutionary advantages to an ape but rather in real terms would represent a series of significant disadvantages
Why?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Jason
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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nathan wrote:
Jason wrote: ...recent observations of cosmic background radiation indicate the universe is actually expanding at an accelerated rate, hence there may not be any contraction or 'Big Crunch.'
I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time, therefore the universe is always expanding and always expanding at an accelerated rate.
For my part, I never said it's "unquestionably inferred" that the universe will always expand at an accelerated rate, only that there may not be any contraction because the universe's expansion appears to be accelerating. And if the current data about the size and shape of our universe is correct (which, of course, may not be the case), equations/models strongly suggest that universe will continue to expand indefinitely because the density of the universe is less than or equal to the critical density (i.e., the average density of matter in the universe above which the expansion of the universe will slow down and reverse). For more information, I suggest checking out this article on the expanding universe from the SSDS website and UCLA'a Frequently Asked Questions in Cosmology.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Jason
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Re: Agganna Sutta

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mikenz66 wrote:Hi Nathan,
nathan wrote:
Jason wrote: ...recent observations of cosmic background radiation indicate the universe is actually expanding at an accelerated rate, hence there may not be any contraction or 'Big Crunch.'
I noticed this point has been mentioned repeatedly. I would appreciate it if someone scientifical could explain how it is unquestionably inferred that, as the universe 'appears' to be expanding at an accelerated rate at this time,....
The apparent accelerated expansion hinges more on observations of supernovas in distant galaxies.
Actually, the observation of cosmic background radiation has presented a great deal of evidence of this as well. For example, from astroengine:
  • A new cosmic map has been created by University of Hawaii astronomers showing the fingerprint of dark energy throughout the observable Universe. This is the first time such precise direct evidence of the mysterious force that is believed to be behind the continuing expansion of the Universe. By analysing microwave background radiation (the electromagnetic “echo” left over from the Big Bang), the Hawaii team have looked at the characteristics of the radiation as it passes through supervoids and superclusters. If the theory of dark energy is correct, this cosmic background radiation should cool when passing through superclusters and warm up when passing through supervoids. Analysing a huge amount of data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, the researchers have observed what the theory predicts and calculated that there is a 1 in 20,000 chance that their results are random. It therefore seems likely that the effect is caused by the presence of dark energy, giving us the best view yet of this strange energy that appears to permeate through the entire expanding Universe…
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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mikenz66
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Jason wrote: Actually, the observation of cosmic background radiation has presented a great deal of evidence of this as well. For example, from astroengine
Well, sure, there is all kinds of such modelling out there. The problem is that it is really, really, really difficult to do the calculations properly (solving Einstein's GR equations rather than making approximations) when you don't make the simplification that the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Competing non-homogeneous models give different interpretations.

Future work will undoubtedly give more surprises. As Nathan implies, the scientific, as opposed to scientism, attitude is that all such theories are temporary and will be superseded...

:anjali:
Mike
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