Again Alex, trotting out the The Buddha did not do science, but science does not do awakening.Alex123 wrote:Please answer the question.
Whom do you believe more, the scientists or the Buddha?
When the Buddha was talking about Hells (ex: MN130) or when He talked to Devas and Brahmas - was that a lie?
Agganna Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
tiltbillings wrote:Again Alex, trotting out the The Buddha did not do science, but science does not do awakening.Alex123 wrote:Please answer the question.
Whom do you believe more, the scientists or the Buddha?
When the Buddha was talking about Hells (ex: MN130) or when He talked to Devas and Brahmas - was that a lie?
Can you answer the question without ad hominem?
When there is difference between what the Buddha teaches and what the science teaches, do you side with the Buddha or with the science?
When one sides with puthujjana scientists vs the Buddha, how can one be a follower of the Buddha?
Last edited by Alex123 on Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
You seem not to know what an ad hominem is. There is none, and I answered your question more than once quite clearly.Alex123 wrote:
Can you answer the question without ad hominem?
When there is difference between what the Buddha teaches and what the science teaches, do you side with the Buddha or with the science?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
tiltbillings wrote:You seem not to know what an ad hominem is. There is none, and I answered your question more than once quite clearly.Alex123 wrote:
Can you answer the question without ad hominem?
When there is difference between what the Buddha teaches and what the science teaches, do you side with the Buddha or with the science?
When there is difference between what the Buddha teaches and what the science teaches, do you side with the Buddha or with the science?
When one sides with puthujjana scientists vs the Buddha, how can one be a follower of the Buddha?
So when it comes to Agganna sutta, do you believe the Buddha or puthujjana scientists?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
More trotting out of the It is not an issue of one vs the other. If you actually understood what science is and does, you would know that. You are way off topic here.Alex123 wrote:When one sides with puthujjana scientists vs the Buddha, how can one be a follower of the Buddha?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
I am on topic.tiltbillings wrote:More trotting out of the It is not an issue of one vs the other. If you actually understood what science is and does, you would know that. You are way off topic here.Alex123 wrote:When one sides with puthujjana scientists vs the Buddha, how can one be a follower of the Buddha?
If one believes the Buddha, then Agganna sutta poses no problems. If one believes the scientists on that matter, then one can disbelieve what the Buddha has said in suttas such as Agganna sutta that contradict the science.
So when it comes to Agganna sutta, do you believe the Buddha or puthujjana scientists?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
You are off-topic and this will be the last time you are told this.Alex123 wrote: I am on topic.
I do not see a need to choose between one or the other. They are dealing with totally different issues. The problem arises when one tries to make the other conform to it.If one believes the Buddha, then Agganna sutta poses no problems. If one believes the scientists, then one can disbelieve what the Buddha has said in suttas such as Agganna sutta that contradict the science.
So when it comes to Agganna sutta, do you believe the Buddha or puthujjana scientists?
Now, this thread is not about me, so get back to the topic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
About what issue does Agganna sutta speak?tiltbillings wrote:[I do not see a need to choose between one or the other. They are dealing with totally different issues. The problem arises when one tries to make the other conform to it.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
You tell me.Alex123 wrote:About what issue does Agganna sutta speak?tiltbillings wrote:[I do not see a need to choose between one or the other. They are dealing with totally different issues. The problem arises when one tries to make the other conform to it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
You answer it first.tiltbillings wrote:You tell me.Alex123 wrote:About what issue does Agganna sutta speak?tiltbillings wrote:[I do not see a need to choose between one or the other. They are dealing with totally different issues. The problem arises when one tries to make the other conform to it.
What does quote below talk about?
"There comes a time, Vasettha, when, after the lapse of a long, long period, this world died. And when this happens, beings have mostly been reborn into the Realm of Radiance [as devas]; and there they dwell, made of mind, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. There comes also a time, Vasettha, when sooner or later this world begins to re-evolve. When this happens, beings who had deceased from the World of Radiance usually come to life as humans...now at that time, all had become one world of water, dark, and of darkness that maketh blind. No moon nor sun appeared, no stars were seen, nor constellations, neither was night manifest nor day, neither months nor half-months, neither years nor seasons, neither female nor male. Beings were reckoned just as beings only. And to those beings, Vasettha, sooner or later after a long time, earth with its savours was spread out in the waters, even as a scum forms on the surface of boiled milky rice that is cooling, so did the earth appear."
- tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta
Sure. Pretty much the same thing that is going on in Digha Nikaya 1 and 24.Alex123 wrote: You answer it first.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Agganna Sutta
tiltbillings wrote:Sure. Pretty much the same thing that is going on in Digha Nikaya 1 and 24.Alex123 wrote: You answer it first.
Here is how I understand it. The suttas do not deny the existence of Devas and Brahmas or what is said in Agganna sutta quote.
The DN1 sutta denies forming Self Views based on limited knowledge (or limited clairvoyance) about Devas/Brahmas.
What the Buddha known and seen was not a speculation for Him. So what He taught in Agganna sutta was not a speculation.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Patika_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- yuttadhammo
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Re: Agganna Sutta
I don't see a time frame specified...tiltbillings wrote:Time frame; the process of evolutions; the assumptions behind the sutta story; those things that cannot be measured and so forth.yuttadhammo wrote:In what way does it conflict with science?
As for the process of evolution, it's important to distinguish between the evolution of a single being and the evolution of a species. Science says species on Earth are evolving; this is in no way contradictory to the idea that individual beings have been devolving - in fact, it's pretty clear that it is the devolution of higher beings that is leading to the population increase on Earth (along, one might presume, with the evolution of hell beings).
What assumptions are behind the story and what things cannot be measured? Are you being vague on purpose?
I know this sort of statement is fashionable among modern Buddhists, but really? Do you realize that removing rebirth from the Buddha's teaching means removing:clw_uk wrote:Also, I dont subscribe to Rebirth being a part of Buddhas teachings
- any reference to pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇa and cutūpapātañāṇa - the first of the three knowledges of the Buddha's enlightenment
- Suttas like brahmajālasutta, bālapaṇḍitasutta, devadūtasutta, cūḷa and mahākammavibhaṅgasutta, etc.
- Dhammapada verses like "anekajātisaṃsāraṃ..."
etc.
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Re: Agganna Sutta
"Where we all were before"?yuttadhammo wrote:If we don't take this story as literal, we will have to come up with some other explanation as to where we all were before the earth became liveable... unless we're going to deny the core Theravada doctrine of rebirth.
There's an argument for you, Tilt.
Re: Agganna Sutta
I know this sort of statement is fashionable among modern Buddhists, but really? Do you realize that removing rebirth from the Buddha's teaching means removing:
any reference to pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇa and cutūpapātañāṇa - the first of the three knowledges of the Buddha's enlightenment
Suttas like brahmajālasutta, bālapaṇḍitasutta, devadūtasutta, cūḷa and mahākammavibhaṅgasutta, etc.
Dhammapada verses like "anekajātisaṃsāraṃ..."
etc.
already addressed in the rebirth thread. I wont post it all here again since we need to keep threads on topic
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”