The Buddha called counterfeit dhamma fools gold and there is nothing that concretely states that my view is counterfeit dhamma.
I'm not trying to say that your stance is wrong and that my stance is right. There isn't enough scriptural evidence that can satisfy proof for that, or for that matter satisfy that you are right and I am wrong. This is the point I'm trying to make. All you're doing is accusing me of being incorrect without any solid evidence. As such, I'd just like us to stop pretending that this exchange actually has the capacity to lead anywhere. This discussion board deserves actual debates that are reinforced with references rather than exchanges that simply involve repetitive statements of views.
My aplogies if any of this comes off as unwarrantedly accusatory. I'm just telling it as I see it.
Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
- tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
I was going to say something about this discussion, but this is worth repeating:
darvki wrote:I'm not trying to say that your stance is wrong and that my stance is right. There isn't enough scriptural evidence that can satisfy proof for that, or for that matter satisfy that you are right and I am wrong. This is the point I'm trying to make. All you're doing is accusing me of being incorrect without any solid evidence. As such, I'd just like us to stop pretending that this exchange actually has the capacity to lead anywhere. This discussion board deserves actual debates that are reinforced with references rather than exchanges that simply involve repetitive statements of views.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi Darvki
Well if the source (the tipitaka) cannot prove it, and if we are of the opinion that all other commentaries have the tipitaka as the root what use are other references/sources in resolving this?
with metta
Matheesha
Well if the source (the tipitaka) cannot prove it, and if we are of the opinion that all other commentaries have the tipitaka as the root what use are other references/sources in resolving this?
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
None. I don't think this discussion has the potential for any real resolution. That's my point.
I don't understand why you chose to debate views on absorptions. No harm done, obviously, but one can't refute an intepretation with another when the very existence of the different interpretations comes from a lack of utter explicitness in the source.
I don't understand why you chose to debate views on absorptions. No harm done, obviously, but one can't refute an intepretation with another when the very existence of the different interpretations comes from a lack of utter explicitness in the source.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Hi darvki,
I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.
with metta
Matheesha
I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
rowyourboat wrote:I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.
It is indeed an unfortunate dynamic that has emerged within Buddhism. I myself am not familiar with the historical context involving the dhamma's dying out in various regions, but I have witnessed it for sure on a smaller scale. However, I cannot agree that my views fall under an "anything goes" attitude.
Downplaying Jhana
Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering.
http://www.everythingspirals.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.everythingspirals.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Downplaying Jhana
Hello moth,
As this is the meditation (general) section, can you post some of the 'downplays' and some of the Suttas that you are referring to please?
with metta
Chris
As this is the meditation (general) section, can you post some of the 'downplays' and some of the Suttas that you are referring to please?
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Downplaying Jhana
Hi Moth,Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
- with metta.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Downplaying Jhana
i agree buddha taught jhana, why is it so uncommon nowadays?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: Downplaying Jhana
Because these teachers' conception of jhana is something different from what the Buddha actualy thaught. They think it's an even more absorbed state where the senses are shut down and there is no possibility of doing vipassana while in these states. Unsurprisingly, they think these more absorbed states are relatively useless and that there is the danger of one geting lost in doing this type of "jhana" the rest of their lives without striving for liberation.
For a really good thread on the nature of jhana see (at least the first page of) this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For a really good thread on the nature of jhana see (at least the first page of) this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Downplaying Jhana
Jhāna is listed as 8th factor of N8P. There are 7 factors that needs to be accomplished prior to Jhāna as part of sammā-samādhi.Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
Furthermore:
- "Whatever streams are in the world, it is mindfulness that obstructs them and restricts them, and by wisdom they are cut off."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Downplaying Jhana
That doesn't make much sense Alex. I would be very curious to see where is that stated in the suttas, but in another thread.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: Downplaying Jhana
It all depends upon what is meant by jhana.
This whole thread, not just the first pages are worth looking at:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
This whole thread, not just the first pages are worth looking at:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Downplaying Jhana
I agree.tiltbillings wrote:Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
This thread will be locked. So please join the discussion in the linked thread above.
The two threads will be merged shortly.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..