Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:What I am not following is the "If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc"
Right. The dependent cessation sequence starts with the complete eradication of avijja, not moha.

Moha is a product of avijja.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: Moha is a product of avijja.
And you know I am going to ask which sutta says that. Wait fot it, (highlight and paste) here it is: which sutta says that?

Ven Thanisarro might not agree with that. when there is ignorance of the four noble truths [III/H/i] (a subtle form of delusion, - quoted above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Maybe not, but Ven. Gunaratna would agree.
When there is ignorance there is confusion. That is another word. Ignorance is called avijja. Confusion is called moha. When we do not know the truth, we build up theories. We come up with all kind of theories. Theories regarding the world, the self. All the theories in the world are based on these two factors. What are the two factors? The belief in self and about the world. These theories confuse us and that is called moha. avijja is one thing, moha is another. Moha is the result of avijja. avijja is not knowing the Four Noble Truths.
http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... le_truths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Maybe not, but Ven. Gunaratna would agree.
When there is ignorance there is confusion. That is another word. Ignorance is called avijja. Confusion is called moha. When we do not know the truth, we build up theories. We come up with all kind of theories. Theories regarding the world, the self. All the theories in the world are based on these two factors. What are the two factors? The belief in self and about the world. These theories confuse us and that is called moha. avijja is one thing, moha is another. Moha is the result of avijja. avijja is not knowing the Four Noble Truths.
http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... le_truths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance. I am with Bhante T on this rather than Bhante G, but I am still waiting for the sutta back up.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance.
And that statement would be true.

Yet "where there is ignorance, there is delusion" would not be necessarily be correct.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance.
And that statement would be true. Yet "where there is ignorance, there is delusion" would not be necessarily be correct.
For example?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

For example, a Christian may do something motivated by generosity and love. These actions are rooted in non-moha (non-delusion). Yet, this hypothetical Christian is completely oblivious to the Four Noble Truths (avijja) and has not fully penetrated them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

SN 20.1 - Bodhi translation.
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed one was dwelling at Savatthi in Jet's Grove, Anathapindika's Park... There the Blessed One said this:

"Bhikkhus, just as all the rafters of a peaked house lead to the roof peak and converge upon the roof peak, and all are removed when the roof peak is removed, so too all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will dwell diligently.' Thus you should train yourselves."
The same is never said of moha being uprooted.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:For example, a Christian may do something motivated by generosity and love. These actions are rooted in non-moha (non-delusion). Yet, this hypothetical Christian is completely oblivious to the Four Noble Truths (avijja) and has not fully penetrated them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ah, but there is still a notion of self (immortal soul) and self writ big, god in the mix. In other words, delusion.
[The Buddha asks:] What do you think: does deludion exist?

"Yes."

Well, I call it ignorance; that is the meaning of the word [delusion]. Is not this deluded man ignorant enough to kill, [and do all sort of really bad things]?"

"Yes."
- AN I 194 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind of looks like the Buddha defined one by the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

SN 20.1 - Bodhi translation.
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed one was dwelling at Savatthi in Jet's Grove, Anathapindika's Park... There the Blessed One said this:

"Bhikkhus, just as all the rafters of a peaked house lead to the roof peak and converge upon the roof peak, and all are removed when the roof peak is removed, so too all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will dwell diligently.' Thus you should train yourselves."
The same is never said of moha being uprooted.
"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

"The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

"The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
Of course this is so... because the triplet of greed, hatred and delusion all rely on avijja as their root. With the complete removal of avijja comes arahantship (which includes, of course, the non-arising of moha)
Avijja Sutta wrote:The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience and lack of concern. In a unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises.
Source: http://www.oocities.com/upasakha/avijjasutta.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

Nanananda wrote:Out of the three roots of evil — greed (lobha), hate (dosa), and delusion (moha) — the first two indicate the polarization of those psychological forces known as "formations" (sankhaaraa). Formations themselves spring from delusion or ignorance which manifests itself primarily as personality-views. "Herein, monks, the uninstructed ordinary man... looks upon form as self. That very 'looking upon' (samanupassanaa), monks, is a formation (sankhaaro)" (S III 96). - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (My emphasis.)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

It's very imprecise though... what does he mean by "or"?

Inclusive OR? Exclusive OR? Equivalent/synonymous OR?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon delusion as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return."

The delusion with which
beings go to a bad destination,
confused:
from rightly discerning that delusion,
those who see clearly
let go.
Letting go,
they never come to this world
again.
- Iti 1.3

No one other thing
so obstructs people
that they wander on, day & night,
as when they're ensnared
with delusion.
But those who, letting go of delusion,
shatter the mass of darkness,
wander no further.
Their cause isn't found.
- Iti 1.14
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's very imprecise though... what does he mean by "or"?

Inclusive OR? Exclusive OR? Equivalent/synonymous OR?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Since we have already seen the Buddha defining delusion as ignorance, "Equivalent/synonymous OR" would be the case.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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