Women can be Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by jcsuperstar »

i just dont think you get it....

look, i will never be a Sammasambuddha, probably no one on this board will be either (sorry :embarassed: ) but thats really not the point of buddhism as taught in theravada, it's not really the big deal youre making it out to be.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Ana
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Ana »

jcsuperstar wrote:i just dont think you get it....

look, i will never be a Sammasambuddha, probably no one on this board will be either (sorry :embarassed: ) but thats really not the point of buddhism as taught in theravada, it's not really the big deal youre making it out to be.
Ola, how are you?

maybe you're right
maybe not

but sure I want to be a Buddha
in a couple of lives

(oops, I'm full of desire :rofl: )


peace
:anjali:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

thornbush wrote:My all time favourite :clap:
Then Mara the Evil One...approached her and addressed her in verse:
"That state so hard to achieve
Which is to be attained by the seers,
Can't be attained by a woman
With her two-fingered wisdom."
Then the Bhikkhuni Soma, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:
"What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.
One to whom it might occur,
'I'm a woman' or 'I'm a man'
Or 'I'm anything at all' —
Is fit for Mara to address."

Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Soma knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl143.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Namo Amitabha Buddha!
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nathan
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by nathan »

Ana wrote:... I want to be a Buddha
in a couple of lives...

peace
:anjali:
If you are willing to consider reading about all that the Buddha described as necessary for him to do to become a Buddha it will help you to understand why those who have so informed themselves would think you would be seeing things differently if you had already read the Buddha's own words on this subject. He makes quite plain that it is not a short career path and why. You may well become a Buddha someday. But then you would be a Buddha and not the woman that you are now. Just as if you were to become a butterfly you would not be the human that you are now. Buddhas take a long time to become what they are when they become Buddhas. What they do in their time as a Buddha is the tip of a very big iceberg. If you wish to become a Buddha don't you think it is worth reading and considering the Buddha's own words on the subject?

All the best in your endeavors
metta and upekkha
Last edited by retrofuturist on Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected attribution of quote from JC to Ana
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Ana wrote:There was a topic here somewhere about women being Buddhas or not.
Woman can be Buddha and if who you call "the buddha" has said that woman can not be buddha then he himself was not a buddha.

how can an enlightened spirit, man or woman, leave his wife and his son behind and still be considered a Buddha? :lol:
it is said that Gautama instructed his son but nowhere it is said that he also instructed his wife.
this is not a gentleman's attitude :rules: and much less an attitude of an enlightened spirit.

the thing is, just like the world and its creatures are evolving, so is Buddha-nature - an ongoing process, an ongoing nature, always evolving
and in this sense not all is known, not all is discovered
even Buddha nature goes on evolving, reaching new possibilities, new peaks

the times back then demanded the conditions and the circumstances but everything is changing (culturally/socially)
the so called Buddha said that he didn't see any woman in any of the aeons he visited, but this statement is highly material because it implies that what he saw were men, and well, in the spiritual world there are no genders so how come he saw penises? aren't penises part of the physical world and physical body?
as far as it makes sense the spiritual world of aeons is not about physical charateristics therefore what he saw were just beings of light, not man and not woman.

in the future there will be Buddha women
all it takes is the courage and the choice of that next enlightened being to come as a woman

this is it
Well, that settles it; guess there is nothing left to do but dump the Dharma and wait for the Divine Mother to appear. :roll:
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Yeshe
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Yeshe »

Will wrote:
Ana wrote:There was a topic here somewhere about women being Buddhas or not.
Woman can be Buddha and if who you call "the buddha" has said that woman can not be buddha then he himself was not a buddha.

how can an enlightened spirit, man or woman, leave his wife and his son behind and still be considered a Buddha? :lol:
it is said that Gautama instructed his son but nowhere it is said that he also instructed his wife.
this is not a gentleman's attitude :rules: and much less an attitude of an enlightened spirit.

the thing is, just like the world and its creatures are evolving, so is Buddha-nature - an ongoing process, an ongoing nature, always evolving
and in this sense not all is known, not all is discovered
even Buddha nature goes on evolving, reaching new possibilities, new peaks

the times back then demanded the conditions and the circumstances but everything is changing (culturally/socially)
the so called Buddha said that he didn't see any woman in any of the aeons he visited, but this statement is highly material because it implies that what he saw were men, and well, in the spiritual world there are no genders so how come he saw penises? aren't penises part of the physical world and physical body?
as far as it makes sense the spiritual world of aeons is not about physical charateristics therefore what he saw were just beings of light, not man and not woman.

in the future there will be Buddha women
all it takes is the courage and the choice of that next enlightened being to come as a woman

this is it
Well, that settles it; guess there is nothing left to do but dump the Dharma and wait for the Divine Mother to appear. :roll:

Jainism holds the view that birth as a man is required to become fully enlightened.
I thought Buddhism had a less male-obsessed and archaic attitude. If Buddhism is to have worth today it needs to have relevance to now, not teachings given to suit men 2,500 years ago.
The Dhamma is not sexist, yet there is always an element which espouses consistently fundamentalist and literalist views - no rebirth , no women Buddhas etc etc.

The story of Khema is interesting in this light:

''Decked out in royal splendor with silk and sandalwood, she went to the monastery. The Exalted One spoke to her and explained the law of impermanence of all conditioned beauty to her. She penetrated this sermon fully and still dressed in royal garments, she attained to enlightenment. Just like the monk, Mahakappina — a former king — she likewise became liberated through the power of the Buddha's words while still dressed in the garments of the laity. With her husband's permission she joined the Order of Nuns. Such an attainment, almost like lightning, is only possible however where the seed of wisdom has long been ripening and virtue is fully matured.

An ordinary person, hearing Khema's story, only sees the wonder of the present happening. A Buddha can see beyond this and knows that this woman did not come to full liberation accidentally. It came about like this: In former times when a Buddha appeared in the world, then Khema in those past lives also appeared near him, or so it has been recounted. Due to her inner attraction towards the highest Truth, she always came to birth wherever the bearer and proclaimer of such Truth lived. It is said that already innumerable ages ago she had sold her beautiful hair to give alms to the Buddha Padumuttara. During the time of the Buddha Vipassi, ninety-one eons ago, she had been a teacher of Dhamma. Further it is told, that during the three Buddhas of our happy eon, which were previous to our Buddha Gautama, she was a lay disciple and gained happiness through building monasteries for the Sangha.''


Another nun, Uttara II, reported how Patacara spoke to the group of nuns about conduct and discipline:

Having established mind,
One-pointed, well-developed,
Investigate formations
As other, not as self.

(Thig 177)

Uttara took Patacara's words to heart and said:

When I heard these words —
Patacara's advice,
After washing my feet —
I sat down alone.

(Thig 178)

Thereby this nun, too, was able to attain to the three "True Knowledges" (vijja) and final liberation.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el292.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No such problem in the Mahayana - Kwan Yin, Tara etc. LOL :)

Hmmm. ;)
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DNS
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by DNS »

Upasaka wrote: Jainism holds the view that birth as a man is required to become fully enlightened.
Only in the Digambara sect. The Svetembara holds that women can attain release (moksha), roughly equivalent to Nibbana (but not exactly the same). And the Svetembara believes that one of the prior 24 Tirthankaras (roughly equivalent to samma-sam-buddha) was a woman.

But the Digambara is probably the oldest, original form of Jainism.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by DNS »

Upasaka wrote: No such problem in the Mahayana - Kwan Yin, Tara etc. LOL :)
If you are referring to the history of misogyny in Buddhism, the Mahayana has not fared any better.

All of the Zen patriarchs from Bodhidharma through modern times were male.

All of the Dalai Lamas from the first to the current Tenzin Gyatso, were male. The search committee only looks for males for a high ranking lama's future rebirth.

The Theravada has a record of many fully enlightened bhikkhunis, recorded in the Pali Canon as shown in some of the quotes you provided.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

As I understand it, both women and men can become enlightened. But it is a male that becomes a sammasambuddha. So the OP is simply incorrect.

:anjali:
DhammaDan
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by DhammaDan »

I am curious as to why some members believe women cannot become Sammasambuddhas.
Is it because they're UNABLE?
Or because it's just not (yet?) said to happen?

I'm not really favoring either way. I just want to know where the support for the negative view comes from.

And what of Paccekabuddhas?...
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi DhammaDan,

People say it because it's what the Buddha is quoted as saying in MN115
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... mn-115.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by pink_trike »

TheDhamma wrote:
Upasaka wrote: No such problem in the Mahayana - Kwan Yin, Tara etc. LOL :)
All of the Dalai Lamas from the first to the current Tenzin Gyatso, were male. The search committee only looks for males for a high ranking lama's future rebirth.
The current Dalai Lama has said that the next Dalai Lama may be a women.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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SeerObserver
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by SeerObserver »

Adding value to what Tex said, you must understand anatta and try to apply it as best you can. Our gender does not reflect the true nature of what we are. In samsara, we have undergone infinite rebirths as many forms of sentient life, be they female, male, human, animal, insect. Gender is a mere external appearance in your latest birth and you must not attach and engage in this self-identification. It will not bring you closer to arahathip, but rather fuels a fetter that hinders you on that path.
Ana wrote:how can an enlightened spirit, man or woman, leave his wife and his son behind and still be considered a Buddha? :lol:
it is said that Gautama instructed his son but nowhere it is said that he also instructed his wife.
this is not a gentleman's attitude and much less an attitude of an enlightened spirit.
Not a gentleman's attitude? It is the ultimate compassionate attitude. The former, your gentleman knight in shining armor, would "take care" of his family in this lifetime, but allow them to remain in the same cycle of samsara destined for birth, aging, decay, sickness, suffering, and death. The latter, a Tathagata, would find a way to lift this curse and return to teach them this way.
Ana wrote:So I think it's better we wait for the next Buddha, or someone enlightened enough to clarify this issue for us.
There are more important matters to tend to for reasons already stated. Best to make use of whatever exposure one has to a Buddha, if they should be so fortunate, by learning of matters that will actually be conducive to arahatship.
Ana wrote:you will ALL be women in the next reincarnation
so I don't really see the point in your defensive attitude
Who's the one being sexist? Is this a condemnation (saying that they'll be born as women as punishment) or a seeming ill wish? Look at the context in which this is stated. In either case, you could not possibly know this to be remotely true.

With you having said this, is a lifetime (a mere lifetime is nothing in the grand scheme of things) as a woman a punishment for past misdeeds? Being born with other conditions are seen as such. There are some conditions that some are born with that prevent them from certain attainments in that particular lifetime. In your example, these people will be born as women and therefore possibly unable to make that attainment in their next particular lifetime as a result of what you would consider an oppressive attitude towards women.
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Re: Women can be Buddha

Post by jcsuperstar »

i took some online test that said i'll be reborn as a woman in favorable circumstances in my next life... maybe i should start complaining about all this now :thinking: :tongue:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Women cannot be Buddha etc.

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi DhammaDan,

People say it because it's what the Buddha is quoted as saying in MN115
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... mn-115.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
Buddha also knew that a woman could not be Yama, Brahmaa, Chakravartin etc.
It is impossible that a woman should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is possible that a man should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is impossible that a woman should be the Universal Monarch It is possible that a man should be the Universal Monarch. It is impossible that a woman should be the King of Gods. It is possible that a man should be the King of Gods. It is impossible that a woman should be the King of Death. It is possible that a man should be the King of Death. It is impossible that a woman should be Brahma. It is possible that a man should be Brahma.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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