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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:24 am
by tiltbillings
mikenz66 wrote:Dear M.
Mawkish1983 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Nice to see we're back on topic. ;) Mawkish will be pleased.
:) alas, like all things, it was temporary :lol:
So the thing that would most improve your DWE would be for members to stay on topic?

:anjali:
Mike
How about those Packers?

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:32 am
by mikenz66
tiltbillings wrote:How about those Packers?
And speaking of experiences, how about the JHE (may they have all have had fortunate rebirths...)?

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:34 am
by Ben
mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How about those Packers?
And speaking of experiences, how about the JHE (may they have all have had fortunate rebirths...)?

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Indeed. Back here on earth as human beings in the bosom of a Dhamma-loving family, and not in the Valleys of Neptune.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:37 am
by tiltbillings
You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:40 am
by Ben
tiltbillings wrote:You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.
Oh well, there goes my spanking!

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:57 am
by christopher:::
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You moderators are a bad examples. Wait, I started this. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand, please.
Oh well, there goes my spanking!
Most definitely don't want to have to be around to see that... :tongue:

:focus:
retrofuturist wrote:... the only thing not permitted is to send individual topics off-topic through meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about the discussion or its participants - have a look at the link in the TOS about it if you're interested in more clarification on the downside of in-topic meta-discussion).
I'm probably one who has been quite guilty of meta-discussion. Just as some folks have difficulty understanding why it's not helpful to belittle fellow members i don't quite understand yet how meta-discussion is a major problem.

It's a problem if the topic is avoided for quite awhile but i find a "pulling back" and trying to put things into perspective as quite helpful and refreshing sometimes, just as off-topic humor (such has just been shared) can be quite refreshing.

To return directly to the topic of "how to improve our dhamma wheel experience" i would suggest that a light reminder by mods and fellow members to "return to topic" might be the best way to address both off-topic posts (such as the last few) and meta-discussions.

In other words rather then a violation of the TOS i think such discussion should be simultaneously tolerated and discouraged. Kind of how one would address wandering thoughts during meditation. You don't bring the hammer down when your mind wanders, right? You just gently bring it back to your object of concentration.

At least, that's how i've been doing it.

:jumping: :jedi: --> :meditate:

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:00 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Chris:::,

Have a look at the aforementioned reference on meta-discussion and see what you make of it... http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for your suggestion regarding how we ought to respond to meta-discussion, we generally do what you suggest, when we're able to get on top of it in time... but alas we are not omniscient and have lives too.

Meta-discussion rarely results in suspension, and as a self-confessed meta-discussionist, you know you've never been warned or suspended for it... so it would take something chronic to yield such action.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:12 am
by christopher:::
retrofuturist wrote:
Meta-discussion rarely results in suspension, and as a self-confessed meta-discussionist, you know you've never been warned or suspended for it... so it would take something chronic to yield such action.
Cool and... thank you.

:bow:

Okay I looked at the link. Most of the examples I agreed with, but am unsure about...
Suppose that on our hypothetical forum about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, there has been an off-topic object level discussion about the state of biochemistry, and someone complains that that discussion is off-topic and demands that the discussion return to on-topic issues. That complaint is meta-discussion. Instead of being about the issue, it is a comment on a different level – a comment on the issue of what should or should not be posted on the forum. That issue has nothing to do with the state of biochemistry, let alone the book and related issues that the forum is supposed to be about.

Such a comment might be understandable. It might be true. But it would be meta-discussion.
That to me seems like an attempt to get the discussion back on topic, its what mods to all the time, no? For members to be doing that as well can be helpful i would think. It would actually reduce the work of the mods, the community is taking responsibility from my pov, to return everyone's attention to the topic.

But the other examples make good sense.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:18 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Chris:::,

Yes, that's one form of meta-discussion (loosely defined) that's fine where appropriate... that's why there's this smiley...

:offtopic:

...and...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:28 am
by PeterB
One very good way to cut out meta discussion is to have a sub forum where only named people can answer, as they have on ZFI, and which is a huge success. Its a forum on ZFI which is functional and concerned with Buddhism. (!)

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:03 am
by Annapurna
christopher wrote: I'm probably one who has been quite guilty of meta-discussion. Just as some folks have difficulty understanding why it's not helpful to belittle fellow members i don't quite understand yet how meta-discussion is a major problem.
:
Yes, I have the same "problem".

I was brought up to NOT look away when someone else is being unfairly attacked, but to do my best to deescalate the situation, especially when no staff is around to take care of it.

It's about protecting the weaker. And anybody who is being attacked is in a vulnerable position.


So naturally I can hardly keep my fingers still when I see it happening.

Of course it requires some skills that I am still in the process of optimising.

Ben taught me a new word: "Peer moderation"!

Now, why should that necessarily be a bad thing?

Isn't that what is happening in off line discussions all the time?

Somebody gets a blow. A friend tries to ward it off.

That's what friends do, don't they?

And Buddhists should be friend to anyone.

So if I see that XY is mocked or belittled, am I to keep my mouth shut then, or what am I to do?

My friends, I would feel like a bloody coward if I left it to someone else. Who may not even be around.

Delegating responsibility is such a dangerous thing....and I am honestly not used to it.

Delegating can become a habit, and eventually you will watch a lady getting robbed on the street, or worse! and everybody else looks away and waits for "staff" to deal with it.

It starts in the little things, and grows to big things.

So, in a way, my own conscience will always overrule board rules.

That's why I am a difficult member at times, my apologies.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:09 am
by PeterB
Sometimes...in fact quite often what is perceived as an attack on a person, is actually a defense of Dhamma...

The problem with meta discussion is not that is a heinous crime in itself...its that it is self proliferating.

Before you know it half the forum is occupied by people voicing entirely subjective reactions not to Dhamma, but to the tone of voice in which the discussion is being held...but that is trivial and subjective and a substitute for the hard work of internalising Dhammic concepts and practising skillful means.
As Cooran's sig says " The problem is you think you have time "....we really havent. Even the youngest and fittest really hasnt. Lets all get a bit less sensitive on our own behalf and that of others. Theres work to do.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:24 am
by Annapurna
Sometimes...in fact quite often what is perceived as an attack on a person, is actually a defense of Dhamma...
Good point, Peter, and when I see THAT happening, I naturally become aware of how much this person appreciates the Dhamma, which is quite moving.

In "teaching" others, the teacher must pick up the student where he is at.

I admit, I am a hard nut to crack, because I am afflicted with pride.

I lack some humbleness, which is probably why I often type "humble mess".


Freudian slip? :jumping:

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:41 am
by Ben
Hi Anna

We're all responsible for making Dhamma Wheel an optimal place whether our intention is for Dhamma discussion or hanging out with people for whom the Dhamma is a central element in their lives. I like peer moderation as a concept because it recognizes that DW is much more than the admin and mod team and that like the discussions that occur on DW, the culture of the board is a product of all those who contribute. Peer moderation demonstrates a maturity of the board when members feel a sense of ownership and step in. And that could just be by being a valued contributor, of demonstrating exemplary behaviour or alerting the admin/mod team (report function) if something requires examination or helping to keep topics focused. My admin and mod colleagues have lives outside of DW, and so we can't always be here. And what's more, I don't think you guys need us here all the time.
I know this thread is about how we, as the admin/mod team, can make DW a better place. But I also think there is so much we can all do.
Anyway, they're just my thoughts...

Ben

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:12 am
by andre9999
I don't like peer moderation because a few people will inevitably start acting like hall monitors, finding identity and self-esteem in making sure everyone follows the rules exactly. In my short time here, too many threads have spun off-topic into a long series of posts about you're-not-doing-it-right, that always seems to require a mod to step in.

The current system seems to work just fine.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:16 am
by Nyana
Ben wrote: My admin and mod colleagues have lives outside of DW
Tilt has a life?... :tongue:

:oops:

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:29 pm
by Dan74
Ñāṇa wrote:
Ben wrote: My admin and mod colleagues have lives outside of DW
Tilt has a life?... :tongue:

:oops:
Yes, I am confused too.

I thought Tilt was an AI program that is always online with an up-to-date database of Buddhist knowledge. A sort of a Buddhist Marvin...

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:53 pm
by Annapurna
andre9999 wrote:I don't like peer moderation because a few people will inevitably start acting like hall monitors, finding identity and self-esteem in making sure everyone follows the rules exactly. In my short time here, too many threads have spun off-topic into a long series of posts about you're-not-doing-it-right, that always seems to require a mod to step in.

The current system seems to work just fine.
The system has changed???

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:29 pm
by andre9999
Annapurna wrote:The system has changed???
I didn't realize that everyone is calling this "peer moderation". My point is that I like things well enough as they are.

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:08 pm
by Nyana
Dan74 wrote: I thought Tilt was an AI program
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