Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

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Aloka
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Aloka » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:06 pm

.

I know, lets all just have a party instead - and exchange warm kissie-huggies,tea and cakes!



Image
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jhana4
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:15 pm

LOL
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:. . .
For all of what you have just written, I have a serious problem with it. Proclaiming that you are writing a blog in the spirit of friendship and the like does not really mitigate any of the ongoing criticism
I've seen similar conflicts on other forums, with people putting up blogs to complain about forums. I think it is possible that Jechbi is one of the exceptions to the rule, but most of the time it is simply a matter of someone's ego getting bruised and that person putting up a blog to censure and embarrass someone else as a means of getting even.
Which is pretty much what is going on, it would seem. In response to this blog entry several of the DM staff responded:

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... nary-tale/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there is this blog entry:

http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... eadership/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think you have characterized it accurately. Our Blogger, I am sure will beg to differ.

While it is a bit disconcerting to be the focus of something such as this, there is always something to be learned from what one has to deal with. The feedback here has helped me put this into perspective, and for that thank you - all of you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jechbi » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:. . .
For all of what you have just written, I have a serious problem with it. Proclaiming that you are writing a blog in the spirit of friendship and the like does not really mitigate any of the ongoing criticism of me that pushes, in my opinion, towards character assassination in how you have spun your criticisms.

Of all the members of Dhamma Wheel, the moderation team has given your complaints more time and consideration than those of any other member here, but the results were not to your liking and almost a year later your blog shows up complaining about all that. Certainly your right. Much of what your have written in your blog entries is driven by your hurt feelings, as you made quite clear in your PMs to me, and which becomes clear in reading your blog entries themselves. You might want to ask yourself what role do you play and responsibility do you have in all of this drama. Is all of this negative energy generated by your hurt feelings really necessary for you or anyone else involved?

But let me make this direct, to the point. It was never my intent to be hurtful to you, but that does not excuse my behavior. By acts of commission and omission, for what I pain I have caused you, I am sorry.
Thank you, Tilt.

Some of what you've written here, I can't respond to in thread because it would be a violation of TOS and the report procedure if I were to discuss moderation actions here. With regard to my feelings, you may be surprised to know what my feelings are. As I shared by PM with another member here, even in the midst of our disagreements, Tilt, I have often felt a sense of camaraderie toward you. I can't really explain that feeling. My perspective is that feelings are not-self phenomena, rising and passing away. If and when I have had hurt feelings, I have tried to check them at the door before posting a comment on the blog, or publicly here.

I have certainly asked myself what role and responsibility I play in this drama. I take full responsibility for my own reactions to the circumstances I face.

By the same token, in most of these discussions, publicly and privately, when I have brought things up, the tables always seem to turn and the topic always seems to change so that it's about me, even when I say that I don't want it to be about me. I hope that this following comment does not violate TOS, but the pattern has been that when I try to discuss mod actions, my specific concerns are not addressed, and instead I receive criticism back that calls into questions my own motivations and my own behavior. I don't mind being criticized, Tilt. But if somebody criticizes me, I don't think it's appropriate for me to ignore that criticism and then criticize them back instead, and then to tell them they can't take criticism when they call me on it.

I don't want to get into all the minutiae, because nobody else is going to care. As I've told you privately by PM, I apologize to you for those instances when I've slipped and made a personal jab in the course of our often heated exchanges.

The blog would not have come into existence if Dhamma Wheel had a place on the board where members could offer public criticism of moderator conduct and moderator decisions. I don't see the problem with having that as an option. If people are not interested in that type of meta discussion, then they don't have to read it. But there will be times when the line between "moderator" and "member" is not clear, because of course moderators are going to participate with members in discussions.

In this thread, for example, I'm skirting very close to the line of violating your TOS and report procedures, because I'm talking to some extent about moderator actions. Theoretically, I could be banned for this, although I don't expect that to happen. Likewise, at times when I've responded with legitimate posts, they've been made invisible and I've been warned because part of the post also could be construed as commenting on moderator action. That makes it very difficult sometimes to engage in threads with moderators. I hope you can see why that is so.

Thank you for your hard work, Tilt.

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christopher:::
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by christopher::: » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 pm

The administration at DW has acknowledged your greivences Jechbi, they've given you the chance to present your perspective publicly here, which is in many ways an attack on Tilt's character. He's apologized. The ball is now in your court.

Can you drop it, just let go? Dhammapada first verses style...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by christopher::: on Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:45 pm

Ooops, I accidentally deleted the msg immediately preceding Christopher's. I said in that msg to Jechbi, that if your words really mean anything, then shut down the negative entries in your blog.

As for Jechbi's above msg, he is not going to be banned. If we did not ban him for the sustained and unfair (in our opinion, of course) attack on Dhamma Wheel, we are not going to ban for what he says in this thread. What was done early on when we became aware of the blog is that we blocked Jechbi's ability to advertise his blog via his twitter account by blocking his ability to post the twitter link as a signature, though the link to his twitter account still exists in his profile.

Blocking his ability to post a signature that would advertise his blog was a next to nothing response to what is seen by us as a sustained attack on DW and its staff.

Jechbi's latest blog entry:

Uncovering what is concealed


In what I view as a very positive development, the Dhamma Wheel mod/admin team has decided to allow members to be aware that this blog exists. Administrator Retrofuturist has created this discussion thread. Some of the Dhamma Wheel members, including a venerable monk, already have visited this blog as a result and have posted comments. Thanks to everyone.

Meanwhile, however, my Dhamma Wheel membership has been altered so that I no longer am able to create a sig. I had been using a quote from the Buddha as my sig. It was this:

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

It’s not clear to me why the Dhamma Wheel mod/admin team would object to using this Buddha quote as my sig. I think it’s because the first line of the quote is the title of this blog. Whatever the reason, it’s not that big a deal. I’m just happy to see that they’ve changed their mind about trying to hide this blog from Dhamma Wheel members.
I hope it is now clear why his ability to post a signature has been blocked. It has nothing to do with this verse.

I do not have the access to do anything about it, but he can certainly address Paul or David about this, which would have been the thing to do if he was at all serious about all the nice things he said about Dhamma Wheel and it staff, rather than posting the above.

Also, this little entry rather neatly illustrates the spinning of so much of what is found in Jechbi's blog entries: "I’m just happy to see that they’ve changed their mind about trying to hide this blog from Dhamma Wheel members." Does Jechbi seriously think that given that nature of the criticisms of his blog that we should just have allowed him to promote his blog on Dhamma Wheel? The blog was out there for people to find; there was no way we could stop that and that was not even a remote consideration (even if it were possible), but there is no reason in hell why we should feel any obligation to allow it to be advertised on Dhamma Wheel, given the nature of the unfair criticism it contains. And so it goes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Jhana4
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote: While it is a bit disconcerting to be the focus of something such as this, there is always something to be learned from what one has to deal with. The feedback here has helped me put this into perspective, and for that thank you - all of you.
I've been in your position and in Jec's.

It is large in your minds, but not really anyone else's. Most people do not care. If either of you explained the situation to someone not part of the board they would let you know in a kind way that you are investing yourself in something trivial. Nobody is getting ready to condemn you. If people beyond the board bothered to think of it at all, they would see it in the same way as people giving each other rude gestures on the highway. Nice people do it, it is a blind spot in people's behavior patterns and it feels very intense at the time even though it matters very little to anyone.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:03 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: While it is a bit disconcerting to be the focus of something such as this, there is always something to be learned from what one has to deal with. The feedback here has helped me put this into perspective, and for that thank you - all of you.
I've been in your position and in Jec's.

It is large in your minds, but not really anyone else's. Most people do not care. If either of you explained the situation to someone not part of the board they would let you know in a kind way that you are investing yourself in something trivial. Nobody is getting ready to condemn you. If people beyond the board bothered to think of it at all, they would see it in the same way as people giving each other rude gestures on the highway. Nice people do it, it is a blind spot in people's behavior patterns and it feels very intense at the time even though it matters very little to anyone.
Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.

As I said, I appreciate the feedback, and your insight into this. All too easy to get caught up in this. Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:05 pm

Jechbi wrote: I don't want to get into all the minutiae,
I think you should, because that would put an end to it.

As long as you talk in generalities instead of specific grievances you make it impossible for other people to understand the problem and decide what a resolution would look like. Talking in generalities might make other people ( mistakenly?) think that you want the conflict to continue as a means of making the mods "pay" for offending you. For example, using the general term "Suppressing Free Speech" sounds much more dramatic than stating the specific grievance "he told me that posting about the stock market was off topic for a web board about Buddhism"

If you delineate what specifically offended you and describe why it is a problem, then the mods can offer possible solutions and put an end to the dispute one way or another.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.
LOL. Um, that is why it is called a "blindspot" :)

This is what I meant by "blindspot". People who consider themselves to be reasonable people will not do certain things. They have a set of rules or a map for "good behavior" which they follow at work, in their homes, with their friends and among strangers in public. However there are "gaps" or "blind spots" in those maps. One of them we are all familiar with is giving people rude gestures while in our cars on the highways. For some reason, driving on the highway isn't incorporated into our behavior map. Nice people can and do ( I did ) give people rude gestures in stressful situations on the highway.

That is what I meant by "blind spot"

Another one is internet behavior.

People who have mental behavior maps as meditators try not to let their impulses rule themselves. Such people when feeling fleeting frustration in real life, like getting told something they don't want to hear at motor vehicales, would control their impulses and take pride in responding in a skillfull way. People in their lives would correctly recognize them as people trying to do things in a better way. Yet, on the internet, a similar kind of mild frustration.....like an ego bruising would result in the person responding harshly, cultivating more hostility, more ego driven behavior etc.......instead of letting their feelings go, identifying the problem and using discipline to find a resolution to the problem. Another blind spot in the mental map of otherwise sophisticated people.

I don't know you, Jec or the exchange you two had. I'm speaking in general from having seen ( and been in ) many arguments like this on the net.

Remember, it is unlikely that anyone else on the planet cares as much about that exchange as you two people in particular.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:34 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
Jechbi wrote: I don't want to get into all the minutiae,
I think you should, because that would put an end to it.
Actually, looking at the minutiea has not yet put an end to it. The only thing that would put an end to it is if he gets the results he wants. The minutiae has been dealt with in detail in his complaints and on his blog. What real purpose would be going over all the perceived hurts and slights that fuel this all of this?

Here is an offending thread according Jechbi, of which he says: I began experiencing tension when I responded to some of his ideas in this discussion, where Tiltbillings defends and promotes the practice of mindful masturbation.: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Defending and promoting mindful masturbation? Not at all.

The blog entry: http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... n-the-web/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It did not matter what I said in the actual thread or in reply to his blog entry; he knows better my thoughts than do I, it would seem, and never mind what I write.

No, there is no point that I can see getting lost in the minutiea of all this. It would be endless That is only feeding the beast.

As can be seen here, I asked Jechbi to contact me privately so we can talk: http://dhammawheel.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... nary-tale/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He has not done this, but he'll likely claim it is because I am such meanie and that likely I'll be mean to him if he does.

I have apologized. I meant it and mean it. Where else does this need to go?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:37 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Blind spot? I don't see any blind spot.
LOL. Um, that is why it is called a "blindspot" :)
It is was a joke, son, a joke. (To be read in a Foghorn Logehorn voice.)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Jhana4
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Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
Jechbi wrote: I don't want to get into all the minutiae,
I think you should, because that would put an end to it.
Actually, looking at the minutiea has not yet put an end to it.
How about Jechbi listing specifically what he wants, the mods listing specifically what they are willing to do. If those two lists match up on some items great. Those things get done and the conflict ends.

If not, then there is nothing that can be done. The mods could say they made offers, Jechhbi can tell himself that he stood up for himself and people move on.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:08 pm

Jhana4 wrote: How about Jechbi listing specifically what he wants, the mods listing specifically what they are willing to do. If those two lists match up on some items great. Those things get done and the conflict ends.
That has already been done, and we are here now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:21 pm

It might be worthwhile to just to drop it ( cold ).

I know I wrote it before, but a number of years ago I took over an email list. One of the members didn't like that I didn't use a number of his suggestions for how to change the list. He argued with me a lot and eventually put up a hate blog. It is still up 5 years later. Consequences I and the list have suffered as a result? Zero.

Nobody beyond the people involved cared.

DW will continue to thrive. Everyone in your real life will continue to treat you exactly as before.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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