A sotapanna

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:49 am

Yundi wrote:...if I had such an experience i would check my own mind to observe if it is free from 'I making' and 'mine making' & check of it regards all things, all experiences, as simply sense phenomena.

In the suttas, it is reported whatever state Venerable Sariputta experienced, his mind did not regard 'him' as experiencing that state because his mind was free from 'I making' and 'mine making'.

see Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta)

with metta

:heart:
I believe the sutta describes an Arahat, not a Sotapana.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:59 am

Yundi wrote:...if I had such an experience i would check my own mind to observe if it is free from 'I making' and 'my making' & check of it regards all things, all experiences, as simply sense phenomena.
Absolutely, but even that can be mimicked, as it were. Best is: Ah, that was interesting - and then get on with one's life. To make for oneself a judgement that such an experience is an experience being ariya is a bit of a problem. It might be, but it also might not be. Just as there is a saying about being one's own lawyer, the same can apply to being one's own "spiritual mentor." This is very tricky ground which would be far better traversed privately with one's self and a qualified, experienced teacher and not broadcast it on a public forum, which tends to make it look like something else altogether. The sincerity of the OP is not doubted, not for an instant, but I wonder why we need to have been told this and with an offer to teach.

Ajahn Chah's words are worth repeating:
If the mind tries to tell you, "I'm a sotapanna now", go and bow to the sotapanna. He'll tell you himself, "It's all uncertain." If you meet a sakadagami go and pay respects to him. When he sees you he'll simply say "Not a sure thing!" If there is an anagami go and bow to him. He'll tell you only one thing . . . "Uncertain." If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, "It's all even more uncertain!" You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones . . . "Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:31 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Virgo wrote: Thanks Sam. I wasn't doing formal techniques.

Kevin
You mentioned you attained stream entry while at the computer. So you weren't doing any formal practice then. But weren't you practicing something in a daily basis, and if so, what?
Hi dhamma.vinaya,

If you read some of Ajahn Sujins or Nina Van Gorkoms books you might get a better idea of my approach.

Kevin

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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:Best is:
You know best i see.

kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:54 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Best is:
You know best i see.
Maybe. There is always the possibly I may be correct. It seems always better to let go, not attach to whatever experience one might have, so that one does not entangle one's self in it. If there is genuine attainment, then one lives it and in that there is no gain and there is no loss. I could be wrong, but I wonder what is the value of such a public annoucement of such an attainment that is held in such high regard.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:08 am

I felt like saying it.

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tiltbillings
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:12 am

Virgo wrote:I felt like saying it.
That, however, does not show much insight into either your motivation or the effect it might have upon those who would read it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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SDC
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by SDC » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I felt like saying it.
That, however, does not show much insight into either your motivation or the effect it might have upon those who would read it.
I try to never involve myself in these situations, but I have to agree with Tilt here.

Considering the potential for so much unpredictable feedback, some of which will cause controversy and skepticism, I'd like to know why as well.

Inspiration?

Virgo
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:33 am

I don't feel like living with a bottled up "secret". That is my motivation.

It is not as easy as you think being totally different from every one else.

I'm a New Yorker buddy. I grew up as a graffiti artist in New York City spraypainting trains and rooftops, making my own rules, and I even been to jail for it. When I got a little older and became a Buddhist I wanted to be a monk so I traveled half way across the world, not knowing the language or anyone save for an internet contact that I had never met before and decided I would not leave the country without being ordained. I did exactly that. I don't follow rules like most people do. I've always had the New York brooklyn style. I make my own rules. If I feel like telling people I am a sotapanna, I just go ahead and tell the whole world rather than bottle it up and keep it inside. It's just my perogative. Also, it might inspire some people. If people have faith I can help guide them on the right path. I said I will answer peoples questions and I will, but I have not and will not set myself up to teach. Generally, I answer peoples questions and tell them that if they really want to learn dhamma they should read Ajahn Sujins and Nina Van Gorkoms books. Their books have everything in them they need to learn. There isn't any "room" for me to teach there. I wont accept gifts or money that people may wish to give to make money either, as I stated. I may be a city boy but I've also lived in the country for the past ten years and where I am from we are hard working people, we pull our own weight. Accepting things as a monk was different because it was part of the culture I was in. I just felt like sharing my experience with the world instead of walking around "hiding" it. I don't like that feeling at all. I felt great after I made the initial post in this thread and got it off my shoulders. That is it in a nutshell: I wanted to share my genuine experience of Buddhist realization with other people.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:46 am

Virgo wrote:I don't feel like living with a bottled up "secret". That is my motivation.
Do you really mean to say this? In other words, your motivation was your discomfort, but that still does not tell us why you let discomfort drive you to act.
It is not as easy as you think being totally different from every one else.
But why, then, would you want people to look at you that way, as being totally different?
I'm a New Yorker buddy.
So? I am from Minnesota. You can't top that, but then such things are just part of the eight worldly winds, aren't they?
I just felt like sharing my experience with the world instead of walking around "hiding" it. I don't like that feeling at all.
Now you are telling us that you made your original posting because you did not like the way something felt? If your realization is genuine, there is no hiding it and there is no need to broadcast indicrimately broadcast it. Certainly you could tell your closest sangha friends and your teacher, if you had one. Again, if your experience is genuine, you live it without gain or loss.
I felt great after I made the initial post in this thread and got it off my shoulders. That is it in a nutshell: I wanted to share my genuine experience of Buddhist realization with other people.
I hope that it is genuine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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SDC
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by SDC » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:49 am

Virgo wrote:I don't feel like living with a bottled up "secret". That is my motivation.

It is not as easy as you think being totally different from every one else.

I'm a New Yorker buddy. I grew up as a graffiti artist in New York City spraypainting trains and rooftops, making my own rules. When I got a little older and became a Buddhist I wanted to be a monk so I traveled half way across the world, not knowing the language or anyone save for an internet contact that I had never met before and decided I would not leave the country without being ordained. I did exactly that. I don't follow rules like most people do. I've always had the New York brooklyn style. I make my own rules. If I feel like telling people I am a sotapanna, I just go ahead and tell the whole world rather than bottle it up and keep it inside. It's just my perogative. Also, it might inspire some people. If people have faith I can help guide them on the right path. I said I will answer peoples questions and I will, but I have not and will not set myself up to teach. Generally, I answer peoples questions and tell them that if they really want to learn dhamma they should read Ajahn Sujins and Nina Van Gorkoms books. Their books have everything in them they need to learn. There isn't any "room" for me to teach there. I wont accept gifts or money that people may wish to give to make money either, as I stated. I may be a city boy but I've also lived in the country for the past ten years and where I am from we are hard working people, we pull our own weight. Accepting things as a monk was different because it was part of the culture I was in. I just felt like sharing my experience with the world instead of walking around "hiding" it. I don't like that feeling at all. I felt great after I made the initial post in this thread and got it off my shoulders. That is it in a nutshell: I wanted to share my genuine experience of Buddhist realization with other people.

Kevin
I'm glad you are pleased and excited with your experience. I appreciate your explanation.

I truly hope that this thread causes minimal controversy. :smile:

Virgo
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:52 am

Tilt, I don't think you understand that I may still have a lot of lobha and dosa. I am a sotapanna. I am not a sakadagami, anagami, nor an Arahant.

There are many, many examples in the Tipitika of sotapanna that seemed to be driven by their attachment and aversion. For example, one female disciple of the Buddha who was one of his supporters was a sotapanna but she did not renounce the world, she continued to have her own business and went on to have I think ten children (yes ten) after becoming a sotapanna. There is another sotapanna that was so depressed that she could not find a husband that she stayed in bed and cried.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:58 am

SDC wrote:
Virgo wrote:I don't feel like living with a bottled up "secret". That is my motivation.

It is not as easy as you think being totally different from every one else.

I'm a New Yorker buddy. I grew up as a graffiti artist in New York City spraypainting trains and rooftops, making my own rules. When I got a little older and became a Buddhist I wanted to be a monk so I traveled half way across the world, not knowing the language or anyone save for an internet contact that I had never met before and decided I would not leave the country without being ordained. I did exactly that. I don't follow rules like most people do. I've always had the New York brooklyn style. I make my own rules. If I feel like telling people I am a sotapanna, I just go ahead and tell the whole world rather than bottle it up and keep it inside. It's just my perogative. Also, it might inspire some people. If people have faith I can help guide them on the right path. I said I will answer peoples questions and I will, but I have not and will not set myself up to teach. Generally, I answer peoples questions and tell them that if they really want to learn dhamma they should read Ajahn Sujins and Nina Van Gorkoms books. Their books have everything in them they need to learn. There isn't any "room" for me to teach there. I wont accept gifts or money that people may wish to give to make money either, as I stated. I may be a city boy but I've also lived in the country for the past ten years and where I am from we are hard working people, we pull our own weight. Accepting things as a monk was different because it was part of the culture I was in. I just felt like sharing my experience with the world instead of walking around "hiding" it. I don't like that feeling at all. I felt great after I made the initial post in this thread and got it off my shoulders. That is it in a nutshell: I wanted to share my genuine experience of Buddhist realization with other people.

Kevin
I'm glad you are pleased and excited with your experience. I appreciate your explanation.

I truly hope that this thread causes minimal controversy. :smile:
Thanks a lot SDC.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: A sotapanna

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:04 am

Virgo wrote:Tilt, I think you don't understand that I may still have a lot of lobha and dosa. I am a sotapanna. I am not a sadakagami, anagami, nor an Arahant.
"I may still have a lot of lobha and dosa." So, if you act badly or act driven by the 8 winds, your response is you shrug your shoulders and say I am not perfect? In other words, a sotapanna may not only want gain and praise derived from the recognition that goes with the attainment, but he or she may actually seek it by broadcasting his or her attainment. I am thinking there is more virtue, however, in seeing stream-entry as just one more of which to let go; rather, one should merely live one's attainment with no gain or loss, no praise nor blame.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: A sotapanna

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Tilt, I think you don't understand that I may still have a lot of lobha and dosa. I am a sotapanna. I am not a sadakagami, anagami, nor an Arahant.
"I may still have a lot of lobha and dosa." So, if you act badly or act driven by the 8 winds, your response is you shrug your shoulders and say I am not perfect? In other words, a sotapanna may not only want gain and praise derived from the recognition that goes with the attainment, but he or she may actually seek it by broadcasting his or her attainment. I am thinking there is more virtue, however, in seeing stream-entry as just one more of which to let go; rather, one should merely live one's attainment with no gain or loss, no praise nor blame.
I think you are making judgements which are unfounded. I wanted to share my experience with like minded people and not gain praise and fame.

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