Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 pm
Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:37 am
Is there any standard to ensure that this "new way" of logic will be applied across the board evenly, so that it is not used as an indiscrimate method of a small group of individuals who know each other outside of the board to promote their views and stifle all others?
If you see something, say something... via the appropriate channels of course. As it is, your question seems quite hypothetical, and we'd possibly need to know the particulars, to make a determination. These new provisions are only a day old, and we will need to see how they operate in practice, and whether they need fine tuning, or achieve their intended outcomes.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:37 am
I have a suggestion - perhaps we can have a "tap out" button applied so when we want to tap out of a conversation we will know that this rule has been invoked?
Nice idea, but I don't think it exists. That said, you're welcome to research what phpBB3 add-ons exist that might serve such a purpose and let us know what you find.

The main problem though is that you might just want to "tap out" of dealing with certain individuals within a certain topic. Let me give you a real example, one that I know is real because it's mine. :D

I often make posts and comments here on pretty weighty topics, and because my understandings are for the most part rooted in the sutta interpretations of Ven. Nanananda, and to a lesser degree Ven. Nanavira, people who are unfamiliar with or disagree with such perspectives, find much that is unfamiliar or disagreeable in my own writings. Thus, very often one post I make, is met with two or more replies. If I kept replying to every post, and the reply ratio was greater than 1:1, I'd be exponentially creating a backlog of posts to respond to, simply by responding to posts. For example, this morning I awoke to 6 Dhamma Wheel notifications that I really wish I didn't have. At one point in time, I simply gave up talking about paticcasamuppada at Dhamma Wheel, because I had no interest in the inane quibbling that certain others would raise in connection to it.

I don't begrudge giving answers to questions that people pose in good faith, but at some point enough is enough, especially given that there is a world and life outside of Dhamma Wheel. I have a wife, three sons (incl. 2 under 3yo) , two jobs, and when I'm here it's usually because I have a brief lull in duties. Even right now, I have a 9 month old boy sitting on my lap, who is eating vegemite toast for breakfast (very well, I might add). Thus, I'm not here to be at the beck and call of members, and this is especially so if people are engaging in bad faith and/or (e.g. sealioning).

Furthermore, certain people just keep asking the same shade of questions year after year, seemingly unable to understand what I have say on deeper matters on the Dhamma. Frankly, I'd rather they understand what I say - and can then decide for themselves whether they agree or disagree. Two long-time interlocutors have gone down this path yet again over the past week, and frankly I don't have the energy or interest to entertain their incessant questioning - which may or may not be in good faith. I am no one's teacher, and thus have no obligation to them. One of these two people is also fixated on the notion of "debate" and thinks that just because they are interested in "debate", that anyone they wish to debate with must automatically participate with them on that level. No, I simply come here for conversation and discussion, letting everyone express their perspectives, seek clarification from others (within reason), and move on. I have neither the time, nor interest in debate, nor do I have any interest in converting anyone to my way of thinking.

In light of the above, you can see why I'm unimpressed when someone asks a question, I give an answer as I see it, and then they keep complaining at me, repeating the same question over and over in different ways, simply because the answer to the original question didn't meet their satisfaction. Now, these ToS changes did not come about due to me being hounded, but if I feel that I am, or that I'm simply tired of engaging with a particular member on a particular topic, or in answering the questions of someone with a track record of being unable to comprehend them, then I will unambiguously let them know. Interestingly, this new provision was made at the suggestion of another moderator, based on engagements they witnesses between members who were not me, so in that sense had little to do with me... although, like any other member, I may avail myself of the right to use it, if the circumstances arise (again). After all, this is a path of release, and feeling obliged to respond to never-ending questions is a long way from release.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I still think it would be easier, as Budo mentioned, to actually fix the 'foe' button.

If we could just really get away from a few of the obnoxious trolls who have been banned many times but are still allowed back in, this place would be less of a wasteland.

I mean look at the language you are using, Paul, you sound exhausted. You don't sound like you like it here at all:

this morning I awoke to 6 Dhamma Wheel notifications that I really wish I didn't have.

I'm not here to be at the beck and call of members,

frankly I don't have the energy or interest to entertain their incessant questioning
I have neither the time, nor interest in debate
I'm simply tired of engaging
I mean you are really burned out, and I would be too.

Still these new members asking the same questions are still new people; they can't read your mind, they don't know that you interpret the Dhamma based on some books written in the 70's and therefore will inevitably not understand your views which go against 2600 years of tradition.

I'm like you, I don't want to convert anyone and I hope that your path leads you all the way to nibanna as I hope everyone's does, but, the new rules isn't going to make you enjoy posting here again, it will only create more confusion.

It would be much easier to be able to truly grey-out the trolls, especially those who have been banned many times and who are allowed back in.

Also if you didn't engage in name-calling anyone you disagree with.

Thats my honest two cents.

I'm new to the internet buddhism thing and it seems like right now there is more interpersonal strife here than on a New York street corner.

I don't think these rules will help; I think what will help is if we follow the Dhamma which says:

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.


The trolls soured my mood around here and it did for a lot of other good posters.

Also, while not having been banned here (yet :hello: ) my warnings come from responding to (a) troll who tries to provoke others and then use the ToS when they respond.

And yet when I asked if and when this warning would go away you responded that I was asking stupid, inane questions.

Is this a recipe for making people feel welcome?

Because it feels to me, and this is just my perception but that you don't care about the small people on the board.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:55 pm

Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
I still think it would be easier, as Budo mentioned, to actually fix the 'foe' button.
Well have a chat with the development team at phpBB3 if you're that interested. As it is, the board software has been installed correctly.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
I mean look at the language you are using, Paul, you sound exhausted.
You don't sound like you like it here at all
Actually, I really like it here, or I wouldn't be here. It's just that certain members and their (now potentially ToS violating) behaviours have been somewhat burdensome on occasion, when I have neither the time nor interest in attending to their quibbling.
Still these new members asking the same questions are still new people; they can't read your mind, they don't know that you interpret the Dhamma based on some books written in the 70's and therefore will inevitably not understand your views which go against 2600 years of tradition.
No, no... I'm not talking about new members. I'm talking about people with over a thousand posts to their name who could read the works of vens Nanananda and Nanavira themselves if they were genuinely interested.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
I don't think these rules will help; I think what will help is if we follow the Dhamma which says:

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.
... and you're welcome to do so, but as per the new ToS updates, you're in no position to foist any codes, Buddhist or secular, upon others, so whether others decide to adopt such a standard will be entirely up to them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:59 pm

Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Because it feels to me, and this is just my perception but that you don't care about the small people on the board.
If you had any idea of the history of this forum - its origins, its development, policy disagreements with past administration etc. - you would know it is actually quite other than how you perceive it.

But you don't, so... am I expected to attend to your perceptions?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:03 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:59 pm
Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Because it feels to me, and this is just my perception but that you don't care about the small people on the board.
If you had any idea of the history of this forum - its origins, its development, policy disagreements with past administration etc. - you would know it is actually quite other than how you perceive it.

But you don't, so... am I expected to attend to your perceptions?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Of course not, but am I expected to be able to read your mind and your personal interractions with other board members for the past decade?

Again, I'm letting you know; that kind of behavior makes new people sounds like 'outsiders.'

Its a turn off.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:04 pm

Greetings,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Also, while not having been banned here (yet :hello: ) my warnings come from responding to (a) troll who tries to provoke others and then use the ToS when they respond.
Given your technique of asking people off-topic questions and then mass-reporting replies to you as meta-discussion, it's hard to take this and much of what else you say on this matter too seriously.

:roll:

If someone is a "troll" in your opinion, the new Terms of Service provisions tell you exactly what you should do about them... and interestingly, what you should do about them, is not publicly complain about them. Perhaps this might take some adjustment for you? Either way, this is your opportunity to learn the new ToS provisions and seek clarification, because once they are clear, they will be executed in a manner that assumes full understanding of them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:05 pm

Greetings,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:03 pm
Of course not, but am I expected to be able to read your mind and your personal interractions with other board members for the past decade?
No, you're not, but when I clarify your misrepresentations about my position, the decent, civil thing to do is accept the clarification of my meaning and intent without further needless questioning and aspersion. I trust you will observe this gentlemanly tradition.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:08 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:04 pm
Greetings,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Also, while not having been banned here (yet :hello: ) my warnings come from responding to (a) troll who tries to provoke others and then use the ToS when they respond.
Given your technique of asking people off-topic questions and then reporting replies to you as meta-discussion, it's hard to take this and much of what else you say seriously.

:roll:

If someone is a "troll" in your opinion, the new Terms of Service provisions tell you exactly what you should do about them... and interestingly, what you should do about them, is not publicly complain about them. Perhaps this might take some adjustment for you? Either way, this is your opportunity to learn the new ToS provisions and seek clarification, because once they are clear, they will be executed in a manner than assumes full understanding of them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yup, will be awfully interesting.

Regarding the extent of some taking others seriously, this is also a fascinating point.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by SDC » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:54 pm

There is indeed a lot of history here. Some good. Some bad. As I often say, if you take the time to look in old threads there is a lot you can see for yourselves about what has shaped this place. Of course there are plenty of members who would gladly offer a reader's digest version of events (there are several who love to do so), but some of those should be taken with a grain of salt. I can say that with a straight face because I know what is publicly available for view and the various cherry-picked versions of events rarely hold the advertised amount of water when compared to the real thing. And I was here for 6 years as an ordinary member, and was wrapped up in some unfortunate events prior to joining the staff, so I know what it is like watching from that side.

The picture is never simple but I think the most each of us can do to strengthen this place is to offer words to those who are willing to listen and not waste too much energy on those who don't. On the flip side, if we are taking the time put our words out there, asking others to take the time to read them, we should be willing to be the listener every once in a while. Just my take.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by SDC » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:09 am

JohnK wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:50 pm
Just a quick note of recognition and appreciation to moderators/administrators/owner for your time and effort in this matter (and in managing DW generally). It is clear that you gave this a lot of thought. I'm sure I am not alone in this appreciation.
Hoping for the best.
:thumbsup:

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 pm
I'm talking about people with over a thousand posts to their name who could read the works of vens Nanananda and Nanavira themselves if they were genuinely interested.
Been there, done that, still don't find their interpretation convincing. And it is just an interpretation, not some hallowed truth.
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 pm
In light of the above, you can see why I'm unimpressed when someone asks a question, I give an answer as I see it, and then they keep complaining at me, repeating the same question over and over in different ways, simply because the answer to the original question didn't meet their satisfaction.
Asking for clarification is not "complaining", and often you seem unable or unwilling to answer straightforward questions - which is odd on a discussion forum. It's as if you assume you know best, and don't need to explain your working.

:shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:48 am

It would lead to a lot less confusion if the banner flag above that says Buddhist forum about the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism could have an addendum that states that Theravada, as interpreted by generations of dedicated savants in places like Sri Lanka, Thailand and Burma, is not adhered to here and that the people who do adhere to this vehicle will be derided as fundamentalists by the same people who are bored at explaining themselves to the unwashed masses.

Since 99.999999 percent of Theravadins would be potentially treated with such contempt I think, out of compassion for them, they should at least be warned so they don't waste their time thinking that they are surrounded by other Theravadins that share their religion on this site.

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:41 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 pm
I'm talking about people with over a thousand posts to their name who could read the works of vens Nanananda and Nanavira themselves if they were genuinely interested.
Been there, done that, still don't find their interpretation convincing. And it is just an interpretation, not some hallowed truth.
Not only is Harold Musson unconvincing and whose hermeneutics totally do not fit into the puzzle of the dhamma in any logical fashion, as handed down to us, its also good to know, for newcomers, that there are a small group of followers who deny the entire dhamma, as handed down by the Sangha, in favor of a suicidal Englishman who found life so painful that he couldn't continue to strive on to arahantship (according to his own words as proclaiming himself to the world as a "stream-enterer"), as a way to avoid the inability to meditate correctly and reach the paramattha dhammas.

How this is considered 'taking refuge in the sangha' by 'bikkhus practicing the good way' is not something I will delve into here. However to not even note why you proclaim the entire sangha, in its 2600 year unbroken history, wrong, in favor of a postmodern "existentialist" hermeneutic is not going to lead to anything other than people innocently asking for reasons at this apparent contempt for their Tradition.

But if someone quotes the abhidhamma and then someone else says "The abhidhamma? utter bullocks!!!" That sutta?! Its no good, throw it out!"

It would seem that a forum that proclaims itself Theravada would at least offer an explaination or at the very least a FAQ about this heterodox vision of postmodernist thought in favor of the Traditionalist Theravadan?

What I would like to know is are there any moderators on this board who actually believe that the Theravadan vehicle is their chosen path without the postmodernist reinterpretations? Or is Harold Musson the hidden line in the sand that one becomes part of the in-group of cool people here?

While it is extremely easy to throw out ideas we haven't experienced ourselves, it is also akin to (borrowing a fellow forum member's analogy) saying calculus is absolute lies and unworthy of attention, due to failing algebra 101. Pedantic overintellectualization of a philosophy that consists of contemplating a short amount of lists should not be a dogma in a place that proclaims itself as having something to do with the Theravadan vehicle. Experiencing dhammas directly via meditation could also be a focus instead of dryly adhering to pseudointellectual logocratic regimes that recalibrate suttas to mean something blatantly different from what they are plainly and exoterically uttered.

This is why the mind can acquire knowledge inferentially as well as empirically. We do this without even thinking about it all the time, and therefore rejections of suttas often tell us more about ourselves and our own prejudices than it does about the actual validity of the sutta itself.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by SDC » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:48 am
What I would like to know is are there any moderators on this board who actually believe that the Theravadan vehicle is their chosen path without the postmodernist reinterpretations? Or is Harold Musson the hidden line in the sand that one becomes part of the in-group of cool people here?
Postmodernist? I'm very happy to see this word in your post because it clarifies a whole lot.

While retro occasionally refers to Ven. Nanavira and has a deep respect for his work, he is much more partial to Ven Nanananda, who has a relatively wonderful reputation within the Theravadin orthodoxy despite his "heretical" ways. He was revered throughout Sri Lanka as far as I ever read. It may also interest you to know - and the account is documented - that Ven Nanananda parted ways with Nanavira's thought and their ideas and understanding are completely different. So no, retro is not part of a Nanavira in-group.

Search mikenz66's posts and you get a very clear answer about how he feels.

David, bodom and robertk have expressed limited interest in his work over the years and each have their own unique approaches to the Dhamma which are quite "normal" Theravadin positions. Search and see for yourself.

Venerable Dhammanando is well versed in Ven Nanavira's writings, but has also had a very limited association with his work. Search and you will see.

That leaves me. Yes I follow his work and the work of others who are in the same vein. There used to be half a dozen of his supporters here but for various reasons don't post here anymore.

So there's the vast conspiracy. I'm the in-group.

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:03 pm

SDC wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:41 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:48 am
What I would like to know is are there any moderators on this board who actually believe that the Theravadan vehicle is their chosen path without the postmodernist reinterpretations? Or is Harold Musson the hidden line in the sand that one becomes part of the in-group of cool people here?
Postmodernist? I'm very happy to see this word in your post because it clarifies a whole lot.
Such as?

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:10 pm

Greetings,

A brief reminder why this topic is still open...
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 am
I will leave this topic open for the time being in case anyone would like to seek clarification on any of the new provisions or their implications.
It's not a topic for our resident grievance mongers to raise every piffling quibble about the forum. Subsequent posts that disregard the topic and its reason for remaining open (for now) may be removed without notice.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Important updates to Sections 2 & 4 of the Terms of Service

Post by Manopubbangama » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:10 pm
Greetings,

A brief reminder why this topic is still open...
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 am
I will leave this topic open for the time being in case anyone would like to seek clarification on any of the new provisions or their implications.
It's not a topic for our resident grievance mongers to raise every piffling quibble about the forum. Subsequent posts that disregard the topic and its reason for remaining open (for now) may be removed without notice.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks for the Metta, Paul!

The topic at hand is about the new way, which is that if people want to not talk about things or explain themselves they don't have to, and can have another's views removed and "disciplinary actions" assigned if they ask too much.


:smile:

No more piffling quibbles such as asking if this rule will be applied evenly! :thumbsup:

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