Welcome back to Paul (retro)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:50 am

Mr Man wrote:Ben and tiltbillings will be greatly missed by me. In my opinion they have done a great job over the years and it is a great shame that they will no longer be taking part in the looking after of this forum.
:anjali:
After giving it some further thought, I am going to stick around for little while longer. There are a couple of lines of thought I would like to explore. We shall see.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
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The Thinker
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby The Thinker » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:10 am

I concur with Mr man. Both Tilt and Ben add understanding of subjects of which I have little knowledge, and the variation in beliefs between Paul and Tilt is so refreshing and of benefit to all in this community (past topics are a treasure to read).
I hope both will stay. :console:
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samseva
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby samseva » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:41 am

I do not want to cause problems or an argument, but as a non-moderator (and I think other members feel the same way) who doesn't know what is happening behind the curtains, I have little understanding and a decent amount of confusion regarding the current situation. Out of nowhere, it seems that both Ben and Tilt left or were kicked out/demoted. I respect Paul, but don't quite understand in what situation he became global moderator—which does have an influence on things. I thought there would be some mention of what happened in other threads, but I only found breadcrumbs in the 'Just for the Sake of Argument' thread (which doesn't say much at all).

I agree members shouldn't know every single thing that goes on behind the maintenance and moderation of the forum, but as participating members, I think we should at least be told a minimum, especially when two active and important (I didn't always agree with the moderation style of Tilt and Ben, but moderating Dhamma Wheel must have been and probably isn't an easy job at all, and they still did a very good job) members like Ben and Tilt suddenly disappear. Again, I very much respect Paul, but not understanding the situation why he was made global moderator makes things puzzling.

Sure, the forum goes on, but when threads/posts disappear or people leave without even saying why or goodbye, people are demoted or others are made global moderators, with no explanation at all, it is difficult to maintain a trustful environment and relationship with moderators, non-moderators and the forum.

A short description of the situation (without every single occurrence that lead to the current situation) would be very much appreciated.
Away (until June or after).

Reductor
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Reductor » Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:24 am

I would also like to know what is going on - at least the key points here, man.

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Dan74
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Dan74 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:04 am

samseva wrote:I do not want to cause problems or an argument, but as a non-moderator (and I think other members feel the same way) who doesn't know what is happening behind the curtains, I have little understanding and a decent amount of confusion regarding the current situation. Out of nowhere, it seems that both Ben and Tilt left or were kicked out/demoted. I respect Paul, but don't quite understand in what situation he became global moderator—which does have an influence on things. I thought there would be some mention of what happened in other threads, but I only found breadcrumbs in the 'Just for the Sake of Argument' thread (which doesn't say much at all).

I agree members shouldn't know every single thing that goes on behind the maintenance and moderation of the forum, but as participating members, I think we should at least be told a minimum, especially when two active and important (I didn't always agree with the moderation style of Tilt and Ben, but moderating Dhamma Wheel must have been and probably isn't an easy job at all, and they still did a very good job) members like Ben and Tilt suddenly disappear. Again, I very much respect Paul, but not understanding the situation why he was made global moderator makes things puzzling.

Sure, the forum goes on, but when threads/posts disappear or people leave without even saying why or goodbye, people are demoted or others are made global moderators, with no explanation at all, it is difficult to maintain a trustful environment and relationship with moderators, non-moderators and the forum.

A short description of the situation (without every single occurrence that lead to the current situation) would be very much appreciated.


:goodpost:

I do think it is good to let members know why major decisions are taken. After all this is a Dhamma discussion forum, not a private for-profit corporation.

I'll just say that in my dealings with all the people involved over many years, I've come to feel strongly that each and every one of them has a great deal of integrity and commitment. Retro (Paul) was the forum founder, if I recall correctly, and David has graciously supported it with his time and money. I also feel that Ben and Tilt had given their hearts to this forum, providing patient guidance and support to many people, sharing their knowledge and many years of practice, and it is sad to see them go, especially under these circumstances.

I strongly hope the forum does not lose its focus and its generous character and that some transparency and eventual rapprochement can be achieved with all the people involved.
_/|\_

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:47 pm

Wind_of_Change wrote:
It is with great sadness that I am announcing that Retrofuturist has stepped down from the role of Administrator here at Dhamma Wheel. Both David Snyder (site owner) and Retro invited me to 'trade places'. I have agreed to take on the role of Admin so long as I can return the role to Retro if and when he wishes to serve in that capacity again.


And Retro did return and then he decided he wanted to leave again (last year) and now he has returned again.

Ben and tilt did not step down they were removed. It is a shame that we can not have genuine and authentic dialogue on this matter rather than the conversation just being shut down or ignored.

I agree with samseva, Reductor and Dan74.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:03 pm

Mr Man wrote:Ben and tilt did not step down they were removed.


It looks like a coup to me.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:25 pm

Wind_of_Change wrote:In my opinion, the place was starting to look disturbingly similar to the infamous, now defunct e-shanga forum.


No, it wasn't, and I smell sour grapes. Did you post on e-sangha? How long have you been posting on Buddhist forums? How many different forums have you posted on? Have you ever moderated on one?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Wind_of_Change » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:29 pm

No, it wasn't, and I smell sour grapes.

It wasn't still like that thanks to the other mods around, not thanks to the 2 in question.
For those who want to investigate "higher dhamma" (witch is phenomenological dhamma): link
For those who want to investigate it further: link
Understanding will not come while reading. It will come while lying on the coach and thinking, actively trying to understand it. The same way a mechanic understands how an engine works, the same way one will understand higher dhamma.

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:20 pm

Wind_of_Change wrote:
Ben and tilt did not step down they were removed.

Is it the first time you see moderators change on a forum ? What measures should be taken when moderators step out of line ?

How did the moderators step out of line? Are you privy to some info on this?
Wind_of_Change wrote:
Or do you think there should be no moderator abuse protection at all, and mods should be mods for life, no matter how they behave ? If you ask me, the changes let themselves awaited way too long.
What was the "moderator abuse"?

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:20 pm

Wind_of_Change wrote:
No, it wasn't, and I smell sour grapes.

It wasn't still like that thanks to the other mods around, not thanks to the 2 in question.


How do you know? Were the other mods unhappy with the way things were being run and are the happy with the changes?

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:33 pm

Dan74 wrote:I do think it is good to let members know why major decisions are taken. After all this is a Dhamma discussion forum, not a private for-profit corporation.


I suppose this is written because of the analogy I wrote in the other thread:

To use an analogy, if you work for Ford Motor Company there might be a few managers and executives that you really get along with, great, wonderful people. And then one day they are gone or demoted or some other change. The workers wouldn't know the ins and outs of all the executive meetings behind closed doors. The company moves on and continues to operate with different managers, sometimes different executives. Of course the workers might be shocked, especially if they are great people, but again no one would expect all the workers to have all inside knowledge of executive meetings. One could be a great person, compassionate person, but not necessarily a good manager or executive. And I accept that this might include me too, which is why I delegate much of those powers to others.


As I mentioned in that other thread, this can be to any organization, not just a corporation. Go to any church, synagogue, mosque, or temple and there is organizational politics, conflicts, cliques, all kinds of disputes and issues. There are board of directors and other officers and there are staff changes. Rarely do members of these organizations, including religious ones get ex-communicated, physically removed from the community. No one was banned here. There was simply disagreements about the way the forum was run. There was never anything personal. It was all about the way moderation is done. There have been ongoing discussions from almost the beginnings of DW. There are over 22,000 posts in a private moderator forum that regular members do not see.

It is no surprise that some are coming to their defense. They are very likeable, knowledgeable people. As I mention this is nothing personal, it is just about forum management and moderation. They were asked to stay and participate. We cannot force them to stay, it is their choice if they want to stay and participate. There have been many previous times where there has been staff changes and where admins changed places, as Wind of Change post above shows and where Ben offered to give the admin position back to Paul when he was ready.

Most of the members here post as regular members. Only a few people have had the opportunity to serve as moderators or administrators. And the vast majority of posts are helpful, provide interesting insights and knowledge, and are helpful to members. Of course there are going to be some trouble-makers, but the vast majority are not like that. One can still post and be helpful, if one chooses to. Again, I say no one was banned.

There have been staff changes before and as Buddhists of all people we should understand impermanence. Some of my actual words were to "take a break from moderating" and who knows? of course there will be some changes in the future too. I am not a fan of burning bridges down as "you never know how many times you might have to cross back" as the saying goes.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:34 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:It looks like a coup to me.


How can this be a coup? Who owns this site? Who founded this site?

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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:41 pm

Mr Man wrote:How do you know? Were the other mods unhappy with the way things were being run and are the happy with the changes?


At least one other moderator refused to participate here much because of the way things were being run. There were disputes, again behind the scenes between 2, 3 or more moderators. Often times I played the diplomat and tried to make peace, as did other moderators. But for the most part other moderators have been very busy in their personal lives. We all have lives outside of DW, be it work, family, school, etc. Due to other moderators leading busy lives and not here to moderate, often Ben and Tilt and I were left with the bulk of banning spammers, trolls, etc. This has nothing to do with their hard work in that regard or their great posts or them as persons and everything to do with the moderation style and actions; absolutely nothing personal. Those that have not had any conflicts with them and only see their great posts of course are going to shocked and confused, because again they don't have this full knowledge of behind the scenes discussions and conflicts.

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:48 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Mr Man wrote:How do you know? Were the other mods unhappy with the way things were being run and are the happy with the changes?


At least one other moderator refused to participate here much because of the way things were being run. There were disputes, again behind the scenes between 2, 3 or more moderators. Often times I played the diplomat and tried to make peace, as did other moderators. But for the most part other moderators have been very busy in their personal lives. We all have lives outside of DW, be it work, family, school, etc. Due to other moderators leading busy lives and not here to moderate, often Ben and Tilt and I were left with the bulk of banning spammers, trolls, etc. This has nothing to do with their hard work in that regard or their great posts or them as persons and everything to do with the moderation style and actions; absolutely nothing personal. Those that have not had any conflicts with them and only see their great posts of course are going to shocked and confused, because again they don't have this full knowledge of behind the scenes discussions and conflicts.


So you are saying the other active moderators support you action. The decision was reached by consensus.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:52 pm

Mr Man wrote:So you are saying the other active moderators support you action. The decision was reached by consensus.


The other moderators have not been around. They have lives outside of DW and have been very busy. There have been discussions behind scenes and they are always invited to participate; unfortunately most of them have not been able to due to being busy with real-life issues. Some have very important family issues and other reasons they cannot participate. So often decisions are left to just an admin or just an admin and a couple of moderators. Some have been traveling even outside of the their country.

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:55 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:It looks like a coup to me.


How can this be a coup? Who owns this site? Who founded this site?


You may pay the bills, which is good of you but I would see this as a site of the Buddha's teaching and for Buddhist. The concept of ownership (like a kid with a ball in a play ground) seems odd to me. Perhaps a site given as dana would be a skilful way to look at it? I do know that others view this differently though.

Perhaps the site could be funded by subscription?

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:56 pm

Mr Man wrote:Perhaps the site could be funded by subscription?


Yes, as I mentioned in that previous thread, that is the plan.

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Mr Man
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:57 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Mr Man wrote:So you are saying the other active moderators support you action. The decision was reached by consensus.


The other moderators have not been around. They have lives outside of DW and have been very busy. There have been discussions behind scenes and they are always invited to participate; unfortunately most of them have not been able to due to being busy with real-life issues. Some have very important family issues and other reasons they cannot participate. So often decisions are left to just an admin or just an admin and a couple of moderators. Some have been traveling even outside of the their country.


So the decision was made just by you with Paul's encouragement?

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samseva
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Re: Welcome back to Paul (retro)

Postby samseva » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:11 pm

Wind_of_Change wrote:
and they still did a very good job

That is your opinion. In my opinion, the place was starting to look disturbingly similar to the infamous, now defunct e-shanga forum. That is not what David Snyder or Paul Davy had in mind when they created this forum.

Wind_of_Change, that might be my opinion. However, from what I've read of many of your posts, you've been telling how things should be done, why things happened, how things happened, as well as posting obscene pictures and making exaggerated comparisons—in other words, your behaviours are in the grey zone of trolling.

From what I know, you are not a moderator, you probably never ran a forum and I doubt you were even an active member on E-Sangha or even here on Dhamma. If this is not the case for any of these things, please answer the questions Spiny Norman asked you, of which you ignored:
Spiny Norman wrote:No, it wasn't, and I smell sour grapes. Did you post on e-sangha? How long have you been posting on Buddhist forums? How many different forums have you posted on? Have you ever moderated on one?

If not, please stop telling how things should be done, why all these things happened and posting obscene things. Sorry if this is harsh, but it is the acumulation of whole threads about you and reading over 20 of your posts which are pretty much similar to what I described above. I am also probably not the only person on the forum who thinks all this.
Away (until June or after).


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