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No_Mind
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Re: Dhamma Wheel Engaged Buddhist forum is now live!

Post by No_Mind » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:31 am
Venerable Dhammavuddho Mahathera summarises it well
Well, it is not strong enough.
Perhaps Mahayana people are more realistic.
Have you met any Arahant even though Theravadin believe it is possible to realise in this life itself?
What is lacking in Mahayana is the can-do attitude.
If we think we can't do it, we even may not attempt it.
Except for that, when I listen to Mahayana monk and a Theravada monk I can't see much of difference.
MARCH 10, 1973. I remember the date because it marked the fourteenth anniversary of the Tibetan uprising in Lhasa in 1959, which triggered the flight of the Dalai Lama into the exile from which he has yet to return. I was studying Buddhism in Dharamsala, the Tibetan capital in exile, a former British hill-station in the Himalayas. The sky that morning was dark, damp, and foreboding. Earlier, the clouds had unleashed hailstones the size of miniature golf balls that now lay fused in white clusters along the roadside that led from the village of McLeod Ganj down to the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives, where the anniversary was to be commemorated.

A white canvas awning, straining and flapping in the wind, was strung in front of the Library. Beneath it sat a huddle of senior monks in burgundy robes, aristocrats in long gray chubas, and the Indian superintendent of police from Kotwali Bazaar. I joined a crowd gathered on a large terrace below and waited for the proceedings to begin. The Dalai Lama, a spry, shaven-headed man of thirty-eight, strode onto an impromptu stage. The audience spontaneously prostrated itself as one onto the muddy ground. He read a speech, which was barely audible above the wind, delivered in rapid-fire Tibetan, a language I did not yet understand, at a velocity I would never master. Every now and then a drop of rain would descend from the lowering sky.

I was distracted from my thoughts about the plight of Tibet by the harsh shriek of what sounded like a trumpet. Perched on a ledge on the steep hillside beside the Library, next to a smoking fire, stood a bespectacled lama, legs akimbo, blowing into a thighbone and ringing a bell. His disheveled hair was tied in a topknot. A white robe, trimmed in red, was slung carelessly across his left shoulder. When he wasn’t blowing his horn, he would mutter what seemed like imprecations at the grumbling clouds, his right hand extended in the threatening mudra, a ritual gesture used to ward off danger. From time to time he would put down his thighbone and fling an arc of mustard seeds against the ominous mists.

Then there was an almighty crash. Rain hammered down on the corrugated iron roofs of the residential buildings on the far side of the Library, obliterating the Dalai Lama’s words. This noise went on for several minutes. The lama on the hillside stamped his feet, blew his thighbone, and rang his bell with increased urgency. The heavy drops of rain that had started falling on the dignitaries and the crowd abruptly stopped.

After the Dalai Lama left and the crowd dispersed, I joined a small group of fellow Injis. In reverential tones, we discussed how the lama on the hill—whose name was Yeshe Dorje—had prevented the storm from soaking us. I heard myself say: “And you could hear the rain still falling all around us: over there by the Library and on those government buildings behind as well.” The others nodded and smiled in awed agreement.

Even as I was speaking, I knew I was not telling the truth. I had heard no rain on the roofs behind me. Not a drop. Yet to be convinced that the lama had prevented the rain with his ritual and spells, I had to believe that he had created a magical umbrella to shield the crowd from the storm. Otherwise, what had happened would not have been that remarkable. Who has not witnessed rain falling a short distance away from where one is standing on dry ground? Perhaps it was nothing more than a brief mountain shower on the nearby hillside. None of us would have dared to admit this possibility. That would have brought us perilously close to questioning the lama’s prowess and, by implication, the whole elaborate belief system of Tibetan Buddhism.

For several years, I continued to peddle this lie. It was my favorite (and only) example of my firsthand experience of the supernatural powers of Tibetan lamas. But, strangely, whenever I told it, it didn’t feel like a lie. I had taken the lay Buddhist precepts and would soon take monastic vows.

I took the moral injunction against lying very seriously. In other circumstances, I would scrupulously, even neurotically, avoid telling the slightest falsehood. Yet, somehow, this one did not count. At times, I tried to persuade myself that perhaps it was true: the rain had fallen behind me, but I had not noticed. The others—albeit at my prompting—had confirmed what I said. But such logical gymnastics failed to convince me for very long.

I suspect my lie did not feel like a lie because it served to affirm what I believed to be a greater truth. My words were a heartfelt and spontaneous utterance of our passionatelyshared convictions. In a weirdly unnerving way, I did not feel that “I” had said them. It was as though something far larger than all of us had caused them to issue from my lips.

Moreover, the greater truth, in whose service my lie was employed, was imparted to us by men of unimpeachable moral and intellectual character. These kind, learned, enlightened monks would not deceive us. They repeatedly said to accept what they taught only after testing it as carefully as a goldsmith would assay a piece of gold. Since they themselves must have subjected these teachings to that kind of rigorous scrutiny during their years of study and meditation, then surely they were not speaking out of blind conviction, but from their own direct knowledge and experience? Ergo: Yeshe Dorje stopped the rain with his thighbone, bell, mustard seeds, and incantations.

From Confession of a Buddhist Atheist by Stephen Batchelor

Back in 2013 this was enough to convince me to subscribe to Theravada. I do not know much about Mahayana except the basic framework and history (and some parts of Madhyamaka) but the above sounds frighteningly like superstition ridden lay Hinduism.


:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

SarathW
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Re: Dhamma Wheel Engaged Buddhist forum is now live!

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:59 am

the above sounds frighteningly like superstition ridden lay Hinduism.
I agree but you find similar stuff in Theravada too.
What matters is what it says in Sutras.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Grigoris
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Re: Dhamma Wheel Engaged Buddhist forum is now live!

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:09 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:18 am
... and as far as I know one cannot be a believer in both.
Both??? They were both Buddhism the last time I checked.
Which hat did you wear at Vesak Day conference?
The conference was indoors, so I did not need a hat.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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No_Mind
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Re: Dhamma Wheel Engaged Buddhist forum is now live!

Post by No_Mind » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:27 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:59 am
the above sounds frighteningly like superstition ridden lay Hinduism.
I agree but you find similar stuff in Theravada too.
What matters is what it says in Sutras.
What magical mumbo jumbo stuff do you find in Theravada? Maybe a monk or two here and there may sell an amulet or trinket .. but organised, institutional mumbo jumbo .. do you find it in Theravada? Give few examples.

As far as sutras go .. there is no evidence that they are the word of Buddha.
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:09 am
No_Mind wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:18 am
... and as far as I know one cannot be a believer in both.
Both??? They were both Buddhism the last time I checked.
Which hat did you wear at Vesak Day conference?
The conference was indoors, so I did not need a hat.
One cannot be both a Shia and Sunni, Catholic and Protestant .. division between Mahayana and Theravada are deeper than those two .. fine I get it you do not wish to clarify.

I have always felt those who wear two hats (like me) should clarify their identity and intent. But you are of course entitled to your privacy.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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SDC
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Re: Dhamma Wheel Engaged Buddhist forum is now live!

Post by SDC » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Please refer any immediate questions and/or suggestions regarding the structural changes to DW to the suggestion box. The question of why these changes were made has been discussed enough and there are plenty of recent threads where people can see that information. So anyone who wishes to further express their discontents with this decision can do so via the complaints procedure.

All DWE concerns should taken up on DWE.

All personal issues between members should be handled privately.

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