Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:05 pm

Since becoming a Buddhist, I see anicca, dukkha, anatta in all aspects of daily life & I see the futility in most activities which I used to take such pleasure in, such as yearning for the latest gadgets or toys, games, shows, shopping, eating out, etc., things which I don't partake of much anymore. I also see the unskillfulness in almost all (business) work, as they almost always involve using the "tools" of moha, lobha, and dosa in various guises to persuade consumers to part with money for unnecessary things. My motivation to strive in this world of business has gone considerably down.

I guess my question is: How should we as lay followers (e.g. with a family to support) approach this in our Buddhist practice?

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 5535
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by SDC » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:09 pm

I'm going to ask the same thing I asked the person who started a very similar thread last week: what about sex? Has that gone down at the same pace? The reason I harp on this is because it is easy to loose interest in this or that detail in the world while you allow sex to hold up the whole thing. Just don't ever forget sex and lust are of the world and if everything else is diminishing while that remains the same, it may just be a case of having consolidated one's ignorance into one activity while you expose everything else.

This is of course my opinion. As a married father of 2, I've had no choice but to consider it.

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:12 pm

SDC wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:09 pm
I'm going to ask the same thing I asked the person who started a very similar thread last week: what about sex? Has that gone down at the same pace? The reason I harp on this is because it is easy to loose interest in this or that detail in the world while you allow sex to hold up the whole thing. Just don't ever forget sex and lust are of the world and if everything else is diminishing while that remains the same, it may just be a case of having consolidated one's ignorance into one activity while you expose everything else.

This is of course my opinion. As a married father of 2, I've had no choice but to consider it.
Yes, that has also diminished.

JohnK
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by JohnK » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:16 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:05 pm
...I also see the unskillfulness in almost all (business) work...My motivation to strive in this world of business has gone considerably down...How should we as lay followers (e.g. with a family to support) approach this in our Buddhist practice?
Just a few thoughts:
Perhaps the motivation at work could come from that need to support family (vs. buying into "this world of business").
Or there can be motivation to cultivate and follow wholesome intentions to the extent possible w/in work: moment-by-moment generosity and right speech come to mind. "To the extent possible" might extend to helping to change the "culture" at work, or even change jobs to something less "samsaric." In the end, I suppose samsara is samsara (driven by the three roots you note) -- to suffer because one wishes samsara to be something else is a suffering to comprehend and a suffering to potentially lessen by seeing its cause and abandoning it.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

Digity
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by Digity » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:05 am

In terms of work, the company is paying you so I think it's important to do your job well. Otherwise, you might get fired or you'll be the first to get laid off if they need to cut people. Are all businesses unskillful? I mean, people need to make a living and feed their families, etc. As long as you're not going again Right Livelihood then I think there's nothing wrong with working. I definitely agree with you that not all jobs out there are wholesome. I guess you should seek out something that you consider wholesome work and do your best at it.

SarathW
Posts: 13485
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:21 am

Buddha worked almost 40 years tirelessly.
It appears you got the Buddha's teaching the wrong way.
Buddha equated the Dhamma to a snake.
If you hold it on its tail instead of the head, it will turn back and bite you causing you death.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:44 am

JohnK wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:16 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:05 pm
...I also see the unskillfulness in almost all (business) work...My motivation to strive in this world of business has gone considerably down...How should we as lay followers (e.g. with a family to support) approach this in our Buddhist practice?
Just a few thoughts:
Perhaps the motivation at work could come from that need to support family (vs. buying into "this world of business").
Or there can be motivation to cultivate and follow wholesome intentions to the extent possible w/in work: moment-by-moment generosity and right speech come to mind. "To the extent possible" might extend to helping to change the "culture" at work, or even change jobs to something less "samsaric." In the end, I suppose samsara is samsara (driven by the three roots you note) -- to suffer because one wishes samsara to be something else is a suffering to comprehend and a suffering to potentially lessen by seeing its cause and abandoning it.
Those are all good points. I don't know of any (paying) line of business open to me that does not involve increasing moha, lobha, and dosa, sadly.

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 am

Digity wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:05 am
In terms of work, the company is paying you so I think it's important to do your job well. Otherwise, you might get fired or you'll be the first to get laid off if they need to cut people. Are all businesses unskillful? I mean, people need to make a living and feed their families, etc. As long as you're not going again Right Livelihood then I think there's nothing wrong with working. I definitely agree with you that not all jobs out there are wholesome. I guess you should seek out something that you consider wholesome work and do your best at it.
I think most people think of this statement when "right livelihood" is mentioned: "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."

But I am reminded of MN 117 where it is also said: "what is wrong livelihood? Scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, & pursuing gain with gain. This is wrong livelihood."

MN 117 seems to describe the dilemma I face in my own lay life today. Pretty much all business today - even ones not included in the first list - involves scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, or pursuing gain with gain.

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:21 am
Buddha worked almost 40 years tirelessly.
It appears you got the Buddha's teaching the wrong way.
Buddha equated the Dhamma to a snake.
If you hold it on its tail instead of the head, it will turn back and bite you causing you death.
I agree that the Buddha worked, but his (skillful) work did not involve supporting a lay life & family in ways that does not involve moha/lobha/dosa, which is more specifically my problem.

SarathW
Posts: 13485
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:01 am

Perhaps you have to do these activities with compassion and loving-kindness.
Think about how your hard work helps others to be happy.
Be happy with the success of the other (Muditha)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SteRo
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by SteRo » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:15 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:05 pm
I guess my question is: How should we as lay followers (e.g. with a family to support) approach this in our Buddhist practice?
Compassion, loving kindness, mudita, giving (includes your time, effort, understanding etc.) etc.

Digity
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by Digity » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:52 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:48 am
But I am reminded of MN 117 where it is also said: "what is wrong livelihood? Scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, & pursuing gain with gain. This is wrong livelihood."

MN 117 seems to describe the dilemma I face in my own lay life today. Pretty much all business today - even ones not included in the first list - involves scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, or pursuing gain with gain.
Do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation of that sutta? He says that those are wrong means for a monk to gain their requisites and it’s not intended to be for lay people.

Digity
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by Digity » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:56 pm

Footnote 1110
67B0D331-E4D8-4C2F-B9C7-54165B442E49.jpeg

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:32 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:01 am
Perhaps you have to do these activities with compassion and loving-kindness.
Think about how your hard work helps others to be happy.
Be happy with the success of the other (Muditha)
What I see is that my work helps others to gain more short-term pleasure by increasing their moha, lobha, and dosa, and my metta and karuna understands that and criticizes my own livelihood.
Last edited by cookiemonster on Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Moha, lobha & dosa and work

Post by cookiemonster » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:34 pm

SteRo wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:15 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:05 pm
I guess my question is: How should we as lay followers (e.g. with a family to support) approach this in our Buddhist practice?
Compassion, loving kindness, mudita, giving (includes your time, effort, understanding etc.) etc.
Can we express those qualities while knowing we are working in an unskillful manner?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 7 guests