Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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mirzalemon
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Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by mirzalemon » Mon May 20, 2019 1:22 pm

Recently a friend took a job in an industry that slaughters chickens for consumption. She transitioned from a company that built weapons that have killed thousands of people and continue to do so.

I find it hard to be joyous for her accomplishments. I grin and say "congratulations", yet behind my smile I feel sad to see a friend continue to take jobs that don't exactly fall in the category of "right livelihood". In-between jobs she struggles, and seems to be happy when finding work, no matter how lucrative it may be.

Do you all have any experience in dealing with a situation like this?

If so, how do you approach and/or relate to someone in such a situation?

Thank you.

santa100
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by santa100 » Mon May 20, 2019 5:47 pm

Depends on how close you are to your friend. If you aren't really very close friends, then not much you can do there. But if she's truly a close friend of yours, you can express your concerns and suggest various different approaches and options.

budo
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by budo » Mon May 20, 2019 6:52 pm

If she is desperate for money and doesn't attain faith upon hearing the dhamma then it's simply not in her cards or karma to accept your ideology, whatever it may be.

There is a sutta where the Buddha says that there are 3 people when hearing the dhamma.

- Those that accept the Dhamma regardless of hearing the dhamma or seeing the Buddha
- Those that don't accept the Dhamma regardless of hearing the dhamma or seeing the Buddha
- Those that only accept the Dhamma when hearing the Dhamma or seeing a Buddha.

The Buddha said he only teaches the Dhamma for the third person. In my opinion, I believe the first person is referring to a Pacceka Buddha who does not need to hear the dhamma to attain awakening. The second person is the puttajana who does not accept the dhamma despite hearing it. The third person is the average sekha/ariya.

In other words, you can point them to Buddhism but you cannot control their fate.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon May 20, 2019 9:17 pm

mirzalemon wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:22 pm

If so, how do you approach and/or relate to someone in such a situation?
I had a girlfriend who was a technician in a lab, she had to operate on rats, cut out part of their livers, and see how fast the rats grew the livers back. Then kill them all at the end of the study.

I told her I considered it a terrible, unethical job. She accepted that was my opinion, and I never said anything more about it.

She isn't Buddhist, and if I don't want Muslims or Christians pushing their religion onto me, I shouldn't push my religion onto her.

It's her kamma, I told her it was bad, and that's enough. No more pushing.

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by Dan74-MkII » Mon May 20, 2019 9:27 pm

I think rather than judging people or even telling them what they do is bad kamma (because it will come across as judging anyway), what is most helpful is to simply do one's best - be there for them, be kind gentle and compassionate, especially when heart-felt rather than forced. That's what effects change the best, IME.

alfa
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by alfa » Tue May 21, 2019 3:08 pm

Without a job, people may find it hard to survive. They may not be privileged. They may not have enough savings. They may desperately need a job. One can't talk ethics in such situations. It's insensitive. :anjali:

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue May 21, 2019 3:16 pm

budo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:52 pm
There is a sutta where the Buddha says that there are 3 people when hearing the dhamma.

- Those that accept the Dhamma regardless of hearing the dhamma or seeing the Buddha
- Those that don't accept the Dhamma regardless of hearing the dhamma or seeing the Buddha
- Those that only accept the Dhamma when hearing the Dhamma or seeing a Buddha.

The Buddha said he only teaches the Dhamma for the third person. In my opinion, I believe the first person is referring to a Pacceka Buddha who does not need to hear the dhamma to attain awakening. The second person is the puttajana who does not accept the dhamma despite hearing it. The third person is the average sekha/ariya.

In other words, you can point them to Buddhism but you cannot control their fate.
i dont think you remembered that sutta correctly, i encourage you to find the source
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue May 21, 2019 3:20 pm

is she killing chickens
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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anthbrown84
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by anthbrown84 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:44 am

Deflection is key here

Do not say congratulations if you do not mean it because this is then a lie (imo)

I have similar things going on in my life and if noble silence isn't appropriate, then saying "oh ok" maybe is enough?

Or we can respond by asking questions

It is not for us to try and change a person if theu do not want to change. If our advice would fall on Def ears then we are waiting our time and pushing the person further away from The Dhamma by trying to persuade them of that very Dhamma.

Sometimes in life we can sustain the most meaningful relationships with people who are unwholesome and our limited input leads to a weakened friendship, but this is OK

The rewards of The Dhamma far out weigh the rewards of being seen as close and friendly to your friends

With a smile

Anthony
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate

sentinel
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:52 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:17 pm


I had a girlfriend who was a technician in a lab, she had to operate on rats, cut out part of their livers, and see how fast the rats grew the livers back. Then kill them all at the end of the study.

I told her I considered it a terrible, unethical job. She accepted that was my opinion, and I never said anything more about it.

She isn't Buddhist, and if I don't want Muslims or Christians pushing their religion onto me, I shouldn't push my religion onto her.

It's her kamma, I told her it was bad, and that's enough. No more pushing.
I am afraid I disagree with you . It is not about religion , it is about being humane . At least Don't kill at the end and let them live . Try to persuade her and let her heart fill with compassion and kindness . This is regardless of religion imo .
I don't know if you see the difference .

Regards
No way is the way

sentinel
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:00 am

mirzalemon wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:22 pm


Do you all have any experience in dealing with a situation like this?

If so, how do you approach and/or relate to someone in such a situation?

Thank you.
If possible , bring the person doing volunteering to visit hospitals , orphanages and oldfolks home to arouse the compassion . Probably could be of help .


:namaste:
No way is the way

Dinsdale
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:19 am

mirzalemon wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:22 pm
Recently a friend took a job in an industry that slaughters chickens for consumption. She transitioned from a company that built weapons that have killed thousands of people and continue to do so.

I find it hard to be joyous for her accomplishments. I grin and say "congratulations", yet behind my smile I feel sad to see a friend continue to take jobs that don't exactly fall in the category of "right livelihood". In-between jobs she struggles, and seems to be happy when finding work, no matter how lucrative it may be.

Do you all have any experience in dealing with a situation like this?

If so, how do you approach and/or relate to someone in such a situation?

Thank you.
Has your friend ever expressed any concerns about the kind of work she is doing? Have you ever discussed the ethics of different jobs with her?
If not, then it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie, since any comments you make would probably be perceived as judgement or criticism, and then rejected.

We might wish our friends to have similar values to our own, but we can't make them adopt those values. Sometimes we just have to accept people as they are.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

dharmacorps
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by dharmacorps » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Its about time and place (i.e. finding the right moment) when discussing issues like this. As mentioned it also depends on how well you know the person. If you don't know them that well, then that moment may be hard to find. If you know them better there is more opportunity.

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Akashad
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Re: Muditā (joy) for unethical livelihood?

Post by Akashad » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:26 pm

It's probably not her karma to see the clear danger harming other beings can bring.it may change though we don't know other people's parami she may end up becoming an arahant..Your fortunate that you can see it.If the friendship isn't that close then consider keeping your distance you are who your friends are.Don't associate with them as killing beings is a heavy karma and to be around people who normalize that should be a red flag.Even if it's a close friend I think you should keep your distance and make friends with people with right livelihood as that will be Your Normal.🐢🙌

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