Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
perkele
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by perkele » Wed May 15, 2019 2:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:13 am
First, it should be understood the grave chauvinistic error of the OP in equating the word "dhammic" with "Nibbana".
But where has the OP ever done this? The OP asked for clarification how the term "dhammic" is to be understood, offering a number of examples of how it might be meant. "Leading to nibbana" was just one example. Thank you, Master DooDoot, for giving us an answer.
28. The Aims of People wrote:
Once the brahmin Jāṇussoṇi approached the Blessed One and asked:

“What, Master Gotama, is a noble’s aim, what is his quest, his mainstay, his desire and his ideal?” [54]

“Wealth, O brahmin, is a noble’s aim, his quest is for knowledge, his mainstay is power, his desire is to rule the earth and his ideal is sovereignty.” [55]

“And what, Master Gotama, is a brahmin’s aim?”

“Wealth, O brahmin, is a brahmin’s aim, his quest is for knowledge, his mainstay is his sacred texts, his desire is for sacrifices and his ideal is the Brahma-world.”

“And what, Master Gotama, is a householder’s aim?”

“Wealth, O brahmin, is a householder’s aim, his quest is for knowledge, his mainstay is his craft, his desire is for work and his ideal is to bring his work to an end.”

“And what Master Gotama, is a woman’s aim?”

“A man, O brahmin, is a woman’s aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, [56] her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination.”

“And what, Master Gotama, is a thief’s aim?”

“Robbery, O brahmin, is a thief’s aim, his quest is for a hiding-place, his mainstay is weapons, his desire is darkness, and his ideal is not to be found out.”

“And what, Master Gotama, is an ascetic’s aim?”

“Patience and purity, O brahmin, are an ascetic’s aim, his quest is for knowledge, his mainstay is virtue, his desire is to be unencumbered and his ideal is Nibbāna.”

“It is wonderful, Master Gotama! It is marvellous, Master Gotama! Truly, Master Gotama knows the aim, quest, mainstay, desire, and ideal of nobles, brahmins, householders, women, thieves and ascetics. Excellent, Master Gotama!… Let Master Gotama accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this day until life’s end.”
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:13 am
All Indian religions teach "dharma" but not all Indian religions teach "Nibbana". What is "dhammic" also includes that which "maintains" or "sustains" individuals & societies from falling in lower realms or degeneration. In short, in this worldly sphere (unrelated to Nibbana), what is "dhammic" includes sexual morality. Using Indian language, the religions of Judaism, Confucianism, Christianity, Islam, etc, are also "dhammic".
It is still not apparent to me how most of the "aims of people" listed here, which presumably are meant to apply to various different classes of men, are less "dhammic" than those listed for women in this same list.

I don't see how making babies and raising them, together with a long-term partner to dominate, maintains or sustains individuals and societies from falling into lower realms of degeneration, more so than maybe a brahmin whose ideal is the Brahma world and behaves accordingly, or a worker who wants to finish his work.

But apparently you did not mean that women generally tend to have more "dhammic" aims than men, as you clarified later:
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:13 am
As I posted, when I came to realise women generally are seeking a long-term partner rather than mere sex, I realised their intentions were more dhammic than mine (at the time).
This was not clear to me from your initial statement which I understood to be meant in more general terms. "As I posted" does not really appear to be the case.

perkele
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by perkele » Wed May 15, 2019 2:58 am

Aloka wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:35 am
Are you seriously expecting any women looking in to answer you?
No one expects the Spanish inquisition. But one can definately hope for and welcome their input on such an interesting topic.

The OP was not addressed only at women, however.
Last edited by perkele on Wed May 15, 2019 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

perkele
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by perkele » Wed May 15, 2019 3:00 am

@budo
You are describing mundane biological realities. I don't see how exactly this relates to the questions I posed.

But you mention celibacy in relation to the weakness of men:
budo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:13 am
When men are weak, they are addicted to sex. When men are addicted to sex, they cannot spiritually mature. Hence why Celibacy is important in the suttas to attain higher jhanas.
Is there some difference in this between men and women?

perkele
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by perkele » Wed May 15, 2019 3:17 am

@SDC

Thanks for giving my questions some thought.
SDC wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:33 pm
Doesn't seem as though DD's original statement said that women's motives "for being horny" were more dhammic, he said:
I discovered the underlying intentions of women were far more different or dhammic than merely sexual
...which seems to say he came to the conclusion that women's intentions were more dhammic *than* sexual.
He said they were far more dhammic than *merely* sexual. I took this to mean that their sexual intentions were more inclined to be inspired by or in line with dhammic motives.

M̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶D̶o̶o̶D̶o̶o̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶c̶l̶a̶r̶i̶f̶y̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶p̶r̶e̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶d̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶r̶r̶e̶c̶t̶.̶ @̶M̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶D̶o̶o̶D̶o̶o̶t̶,̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶p̶ ̶u̶s̶ ̶c̶l̶a̶r̶i̶f̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶.̶ Master DooDoot has clarified that matter:
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:13 am
As I posted, when I came to realise women generally are seeking a long-term partner rather than mere sex, I realised their intentions were more dhammic than mine (at the time).
You then go on to explain how women are in some sense more "complete" by being motivated by more other things than just sex, and that they, in contrast to men, tend to have more than *just* sex on their minds. You also say that men can "clear" their minds for sexual thoughts no matter the circumstances, while women require more specific supportive (for sex) circumstances.
I cannot believe most of this. Maybe some psychopath rapists can "clear" their mind for sex, no matter the circumstance. And pretty sure the vast majority of psychopath rapists are men. On the other hand, I've read somewhere (no idea how they determined this, and so no idea how true it is) that about 50% of women reach orgasm being raped. It seems they are somehow forced biologically to "clear their mind" for sex in such adverse circumstances.
I think "clearing the mind" is not a good phrase to use here anyway, because it seems to me the mind is quite the opposite of "clear" when invaded by lust.

The Buddha called someone whose mind is not easily invaded by lust when touched by pleasent sensations "developed in body", whereas one whose mind is not easily invaded by despair and displeasure when touched by unpleasent sensations he called "developed in mind" (in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta).

Is there some possible correspondence to male and female in this? The one is more inclined to be developed in this, while the other is more inclined to be developed in that? (Only a random side question which just popped into my mind. I think the answer is "no" but am not sure.)

I once knew a horny Spanish woman who often told me that she is very horny and that she cannot think of anything but sex. And apparently she wanted to have sex with me. She always wanted to spend time with me and made excuses to find reasons to come over. And sometimes she told me about her problems or whatever, and then, just as a side remark, she came to the topic of being horny all the time, or just dropping some hints about that etc. Thinking about that made me very horny. If she had asked me, straight and to the point, to have sex with her, I most probably would have obliged. But instead I tried to avoid her like the pest, because I did not want to be so horny, and apart from that I was not really interested in her stories. I was the horniest I have ever been in my whole life. It was painful. She apparently wanted me to "take the initiative" in some way, which I did not do, because I thought she is crazy and this can not end well. I told her to sleep in the kitchen when she came to me in the night pretending to have accidentally locked herself out of her apartment (our beds in those student apartments were so narrow that two people really could only fit in there together on top of each other, and apart from that there was really nothing to more comfortably lie down on than the hard floor), despite being exceptionally horny and fantasizing about having sex with her all the time.
I don't think her motives were very dhammic, although seeking a potential long-term partner for raising a family, in line with what Master DooDoot calls "dhammic", appeared to have been somewhere on the back of her mind as well. I think mainly she was just horny, though. She told me to scrap that Buddhism bullshit. She was more into some kind of antroposophy stuff. Judging by how apparently crazy she was, I did not think this can be good.
At the end, at our farewell (after a semester as exchange students in Finland), I gave her a book that I had recently read, "Happiness" by Matthieu Ricard (a French Mahayana Buddhist monk). She put a condom on the table at the bar where we were sitting and said "Sadness" and then left (but she took the book with her). I was somewhat pleased about having won a hard battle, but also just a bit sad sometimes about having missed an "opportunity". The horny fantasies she gave me came back to haunt me occasionally for quite a while. I still carry the condom with me as a badge of honor.

Could I not "clear my mind" for having sex? Clearly my mind had been "cleared" for sexual thoughts which had invaded my mind and remained there all the time. She did not seem too picky about "circumstances", although that might have become apparent only at the point where I would have made a move on her. But I don't think so. I think the only "circumstance" she would have needed was a bare minimum of privacy and something more comfortable to lie down on than the hard kitchen floor, and me taking some initiative.

I don't really believe that women in general tend to have more desire for long-term sustainable relationships when being horny, even if, after the fact:
AN 6.52 Sujato wrote:"They’re dedicated to their children. They insist on being without a co-wife. Their ultimate goal is authority.

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DooDoot
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 6:59 am

Saddhā wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:16 pm
No doubt it’s happened between a male and female whilst on retreat also as most retreats tend to be mixed except for sleeping arrangements.
Well, Ajahn Buddhadasa appeared to think women are about "motherhood". Allow me to quote this old Thai monk:
Nowadays, we educate the girls to refuse being women
and mothers, and the boys to be unable as men and fathers. The
modern education causes men and women to compete for each
other’s work under the banner of human rights, so that everybody
ends up sexless or neutered. Among married couples, there are the
most ridiculous arguments over who will be the elephant’s front
legs [leader] and who the hind legs [pusher]. This problem did
not exist among our ancestors who ate the single bowl of sauce.
They left matters in accordance with idappaccayatā, the law of
interdependent conditionality; each family could agree on who
was most suitable to play which role.

https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/92
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 7:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:59 am
Saddhā wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:16 pm
No doubt it’s happened between a male and female whilst on retreat also as most retreats tend to be mixed except for sleeping arrangements.
Well, Ajahn Buddhadasa appeared to think women are about "motherhood". Allow me to quote this old Thai monk:
Nowadays, we educate the girls to refuse being women
and mothers, and the boys to be unable as men and fathers. The
modern education causes men and women to compete for each
other’s work under the banner of human rights, so that everybody
ends up sexless or neutered. Among married couples, there are the
most ridiculous arguments over who will be the elephant’s front
legs [leader] and who the hind legs [pusher]. This problem did
not exist among our ancestors who ate the single bowl of sauce.
They left matters in accordance with idappaccayatā, the law of
interdependent conditionality; each family could agree on who
was most suitable to play which role.

https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/92


Of course, and sometimes they just want to have no strings attached sex.

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DooDoot
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:01 am
Of course, and sometimes they just want to have no strings attached sex.
Unlikely they "want to" from the perspective of "free-will". I trust you might find in surveys of women who regretted a sexual act, they often say they performed the sexual act because they were "lonely".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 7:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:03 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:01 am
Of course, and sometimes they just want to have no strings attached sex.
Unlikely they "want to" from the perspective of "free-will". I trust you might find in surveys of women who regretted a sexual act, they often say they performed the sexual act because they were "lonely".

Nah. Two of my closest mates are female. They have sought out sex for sex sake. The one even had a f*** buddy who got attached whilst she didn’t. To her it was just sex on and off for months whilst she slept with other guys on and off.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed May 15, 2019 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

lostitude
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by lostitude » Wed May 15, 2019 7:36 am

ChooChoo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:21 pm
Based on your responses and quotes, I still don't see how it's ok for a female to look at your butt with lustful thoughts, while you're all grossed out if a male admires your body.
Really? Its pretty self explanatory. There is nothing wrong with homesexuality, but the thought of another man thinking you in sexual way is revolting to a straight male. Some men are attracted to other men, some find other men revolting sexually. Its that simple.
That is exactly what I wrote in the sentence that came right after that... i.e. the reason is that he is straight and has little to do with the quotes he posted.

lostitude wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:36 pm
the modern criteria for male beauty are : being young, tall, very fit with bulging muscles and a chiselled chest. When you are a straight nerdy myopic Buddhist male meditating on a cushion for hours on end, chances are you are pretty far from that ideal, and thus a very unlikely object of sexual distraction for your fellow meditators, be they gay males or straight females.
That's pretty shallow.
Obviously. You seem to have lost track, we are talking about pure lust and sexual desire here. Not sure what else you were expecting...

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DooDoot
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:10 am
Nah. Two of my closest mates are female. They have sought out sex for sex sake. The one even had a f*** buddy who got attached whilst she didn’t. To her it was just sex on and off for months whilst she slept with other guys on and off.
Sure. Sounds like hungry ghost. Regardless, the underlying motive I dare not to speculate on. :|
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 7:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:10 am
Nah. Two of my closest mates are female. They have sought out sex for sex sake. The one even had a f*** buddy who got attached whilst she didn’t. To her it was just sex on and off for months whilst she slept with other guys on and off.
Sure. Sounds like a hungry ghost. :|
Whatever it means it shows that women can be interested in sex only.

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DooDoot
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am
Whatever it means it shows that women can be interested in sex only.
No at all. It means seeking sex as a means to a certain end. Please try to not fool or beguile men; many of whom are struggling with relationships and even pornography. When I worked retreats at Ven Buddhadasa's monastery, I had to try to deal with prostitutes & porn girls who had nervous breakdowns on retreat. One of them became obsessed with me and the nuns had to take her to Bangkok & put her on a plane to England. A German prostitute ended up in a psychiatric hospital in Germany. Yet, contrary to the Buddha & Buddhadasa, you appear to be saying promiscuous sex has no adverse results. You seem to think your girlfriends are riding high in heaven as the ride the carousel.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed May 15, 2019 10:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am
Whatever it means it shows that women can be interested in sex only.
No at all. It means seeking sex as a means to a certain end. Please try to not fool or beguile men; many of whom are struggling with relationships and even pornography. When I worked retreats at Ven Buddhadasa's monastery, I had to try to deal with prostitutes & porn girls who had nervous breakdowns on retreat. One of them became obsessed with me and the nuns had to take her to Bangkok & put her on a plane to England. A German prostitute ended up in a psychiatric hospital in Germany. Yet, contrary to the Buddha & Buddhadasa, you appear to be saying promiscuous sex has no adverse results. You seem to think your girlfriends are riding high in heaven as the ride the carousel.
Just out of interest :reading:, Professor DooDoot :ugeek: :bow: , which carousel would that be? :stirthepot:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

lostitude
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by lostitude » Wed May 15, 2019 11:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 am
Whatever it means it shows that women can be interested in sex only.
No at all. It means seeking sex as a means to a certain end.
The exact same thing could be said of men seeking sex. It can be loneliness, boredom, depression, and many other things that drive us to seek relief through immediate pleasure, in the form of sex, food or whatever. Nothing typical of either gender here.

Besides, being forced to have sex as a prostitute with guys you find disgusting has nothing to do with repeatedly looking for one-night stands on Tinder, which is what many young women do. So your argument based on the horrors of prostitution is not the best fit for this conversation.

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DooDoot
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Re: Do women have more "dhammic" underlying motives for being horny than men?

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 17, 2019 1:33 am

lostitude wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:04 am
repeatedly looking for one-night stands on Tinder, which is what many young women do.
Again, the above post is normalizing the above behaviour, as though these young women are Arahants rather than hungry ghosts or in the animal realm. The above viewpoint would make overcome the five hindrances very difficult, I imagine. The Buddha said "lust" is a disease. What is the point of consulting the Spiritual Doctor (The Buddha) when we are unwilling to accept what the disease is?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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