Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
dharmacorps
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by dharmacorps » Mon May 06, 2019 6:57 pm

There is nothing wrong with having sex with your spouse if you are a householder, so why complicate things?

My guess is these sorts of practice are likely pointless, and at most damaging because they lead to further obsession with sex and the body.

form
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by form » Mon May 06, 2019 10:33 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:30 pm
squizzlebizzle wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:48 am
… I am curious the general consensus here on semen retention.
If you have nocturnal emission without lustful thoughts, the ejaculation is harmless.
That is according to Taoist immortals, and also you can know from your own experience.
All cells in the body die, the longest life span of any cell is 7 years (brain cell).
An average person has about 60 trillion cells.
Everyday billions of cells die.

Women lose cells on a monthly basis with their menstruation, even women Arahants.
Even Male Arahants, will have nocturnal emissions without lust, from time to time, whether once a year, once every few months, depending on how much they eat and the nutrient density quality of what they eat.
Since reproducing the species is number one or number two on the list of biological imperatives,
it's to be expected the body will shed stale cells and replace with new cells to ensure healthy reproduction.
Arahants have to eat, sleep, and crap, it's hard to believe they would be exempt from menstruation and nocturnal emissions (with no lustful thoughts).

But what is really harmful is having lustful thoughts. That's where the real vital precious internal energy is lost.
You can know for yourself what the energetic cost is through experience. If you keep 8 precepts (or vinaya) purely, meditate well with high quality of samadhi, you'll need less and less sleep (4 hrs or less a day), need to eat less, yet be more energetic and sharp. With that as a reference point, you'll know and feel what the energetic cost of having strong lustful thoughts and any kind of negative thought can be (hate, anger, fear, etc).

To the extent that lustful thoughts cause ejaculation, whether immediately, hours later, or even days later via noctural emission, semen retention is a crude indicator of preserving precious internal energy and sublimating that energy into spiritual energy.

And those who promote ways and teach enjoying passionate sex without ejaculation and supposedly recycling that energy for spiritual purposes, they will go to hell for teaching wrong views that cause great harm. There is no free lunch in the universe. The only way to sublimate precious internal energy for spiritual purposes, is to not waste the precious internal energy in the first place by having lustful thoughts. It's a non-refundable purchase. You can't have lustful thoughts, which cause an immediate chain reaction of generating all kinds of sexual fluids, you can feel your belly area buzzing like a beehive the very moment you have a lustful thought, in proportion to the magnitude of the lust. There is no magic way to reverse that energetic process. It's a non-refundable purchase. You can't redirect that energy back up your spine and recycle it for spiritual purposes.

At best, someone who is a qigong adept can generate and retain so much more vital internal energy than an ordinary person, that they can afford the tax and expense of some sexual activity from time to time. Even at an advanced age, they may be capable of being more virile and sexually active than an ordinary person, just like a billionaire can afford to eat at an expensive restaurant frequently while an average person only once in a while. But there is no recycling of energy lost through lustful thoughts. You can't get something for nothing. Having tantric sex and preventing ejaculation will just give you long term health problems, even though short term there may be an illusion of energy gain, or non-loss. Like someone taking amphetamines, caffeine, etc. There's no free lunch in the universe.
Certain cells type are maximum at birth and get lesser with aging, body do not make new ones. For example, brain cells, muscle cells.

squizzlebizzle
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by squizzlebizzle » Tue May 07, 2019 1:40 am

budo wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:12 am
I agree that ejaculation depletes energy, and that celibacy is important for attaining fourth jhana. However, your body will "spill" semen naturally, if not through wet dreams, then through other means. It's probably one of the hardest inner battles for a man to fight. But everything has a price, and giving up ejaculation is just another price for freedom.

Ejaculation is just another form of short-term pleasure that one must sacrifice to attain long term happiness.

So as I said earlier, your body may ejaculate naturally without your consent after a period of celibacy, perhaps researching into scientific articles of what happens would be of help. Does the body eventually absorb the semen? does frequency of wet dream rise up? etc..

For what it's worth, I think semen retention sex is a bad idea, it's basically torture because you're not getting release, just costs with no benefits. At some point you're going to have to make a decision, give up your sex life (and by extension your wife if she does not agree), or be satisfied with only attaining maximum up to stream entry and maybe once-returner.

It isn't really torture. I think there are a lot of benefits. The retention of energy is real, but people who have never tried it will assume this is made up or it has no benefits. Your'e talking about giving up my wife. She liked it because when you retain you can - for the most part - last as long as you want, and do it whenever you want. Because, again, you are retaining energy. This worked right up until I hit a wall. How to get past this wall is what I'm after. Mostly people's answer about how to get past that wall is "give up."

Anyway, torture isn't all that antithetical to the practice. I've been on retreat, and I can say torture is waking up at 3:30 in the morning and eating one meal a day, and sitting - all day - with back pain. The fact that it isn't specifically required for laypeople in no way means that it isn't worth doing.

I don't think that I have nocturnal emissions.

If you don't attain stream entry, having cultivated the discipline of sexual restraint is going to help you a lot when you give it another shot in your next life.

squizzlebizzle
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by squizzlebizzle » Tue May 07, 2019 1:45 am

:)
Last edited by squizzlebizzle on Tue May 07, 2019 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

squizzlebizzle
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by squizzlebizzle » Tue May 07, 2019 1:47 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:57 pm
There is nothing wrong with having sex with your spouse if you are a householder, so why complicate things?

My guess is these sorts of practice are likely pointless, and at most damaging because they lead to further obsession with sex and the body.

The practice of restraint is not a form of obsession. Quite the opposite.

squizzlebizzle
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by squizzlebizzle » Tue May 07, 2019 1:48 am

frank k wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:30 pm
squizzlebizzle wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:48 am
… I am curious the general consensus here on semen retention.
If you have nocturnal emission without lustful thoughts, the ejaculation is harmless.
That is according to Taoist immortals, and also you can know from your own experience.
All cells in the body die, the longest life span of any cell is 7 years (brain cell).
An average person has about 60 trillion cells.
Everyday billions of cells die.

Women lose cells on a monthly basis with their menstruation, even women Arahants.
Even Male Arahants, will have nocturnal emissions without lust, from time to time, whether once a year, once every few months, depending on how much they eat and the nutrient density quality of what they eat.
Since reproducing the species is number one or number two on the list of biological imperatives,
it's to be expected the body will shed stale cells and replace with new cells to ensure healthy reproduction.
Arahants have to eat, sleep, and crap, it's hard to believe they would be exempt from menstruation and nocturnal emissions (with no lustful thoughts).

But what is really harmful is having lustful thoughts. That's where the real vital precious internal energy is lost.
You can know for yourself what the energetic cost is through experience. If you keep 8 precepts (or vinaya) purely, meditate well with high quality of samadhi, you'll need less and less sleep (4 hrs or less a day), need to eat less, yet be more energetic and sharp. With that as a reference point, you'll know and feel what the energetic cost of having strong lustful thoughts and any kind of negative thought can be (hate, anger, fear, etc).

To the extent that lustful thoughts cause ejaculation, whether immediately, hours later, or even days later via noctural emission, semen retention is a crude indicator of preserving precious internal energy and sublimating that energy into spiritual energy.

And those who promote ways and teach enjoying passionate sex without ejaculation and supposedly recycling that energy for spiritual purposes, they will go to hell for teaching wrong views that cause great harm. There is no free lunch in the universe. The only way to sublimate precious internal energy for spiritual purposes, is to not waste the precious internal energy in the first place by having lustful thoughts. It's a non-refundable purchase. You can't have lustful thoughts, which cause an immediate chain reaction of generating all kinds of sexual fluids, you can feel your belly area buzzing like a beehive the very moment you have a lustful thought, in proportion to the magnitude of the lust. There is no magic way to reverse that energetic process. It's a non-refundable purchase. You can't redirect that energy back up your spine and recycle it for spiritual purposes.

At best, someone who is a qigong adept can generate and retain so much more vital internal energy than an ordinary person, that they can afford the tax and expense of some sexual activity from time to time. Even at an advanced age, they may be capable of being more virile and sexually active than an ordinary person, just like a billionaire can afford to eat at an expensive restaurant frequently while an average person only once in a while. But there is no recycling of energy lost through lustful thoughts. You can't get something for nothing. Having tantric sex and preventing ejaculation will just give you long term health problems, even though short term there may be an illusion of energy gain, or non-loss. Like someone taking amphetamines, caffeine, etc. There's no free lunch in the universe.

The idea that "energy is lost" due to lustful thoughts, more than due to ejaculation, is something I've only heard from you. I have never seen the Buddha say that the problem with craving is energy drain from the body. That sounds very incorrect to me.

In any case, withholding ejaculation is *exercising control* over lustful thoughts. In other words, ejaculation control is also lust control. If you are saying that we should have maximum control over lust, while having no restraint over ejaculation, then it is like saying you should have maximum control over your health while having no restraint over what you eat.

ChooChoo
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by ChooChoo » Tue May 07, 2019 3:41 am

Having sex and not ejaculating is not good for your testicles. I find that the more I try to repress sexual desire, the more it comes back with a vengeance. It's like bomb that keeps getting bigger and bigger. Everything in moderation my friend, better to just do it normally with your wife. :anjali:

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue May 07, 2019 4:53 am

Volo wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:45 am
So, you want to engage in sexual intercourse without emitting semen. I think this should be possible. But what does retention of semen have to do with elimination of sexual desire?
MN 22 wrote:“Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire — that is impossible.
:goodpost:
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue May 07, 2019 4:57 am

Attachments
Screen Shot 2019-05-06 at 23.56.36.png
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Aloka
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Aloka » Tue May 07, 2019 6:06 am

squizzlebizzle wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:40 am

If you don't attain stream entry, having cultivated the discipline of sexual restraint is going to help you a lot when you give it another shot in your next life.
Not if you're reborn as a worm....

https://www.amaravati.org/audio/will-i- ... as-a-worm/


.

form
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by form » Tue May 07, 2019 4:44 pm

ChooChoo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:41 am
Having sex and not ejaculating is not good for your testicles. I find that the more I try to repress sexual desire, the more it comes back with a vengeance. It's like bomb that keeps getting bigger and bigger. Everything in moderation my friend, better to just do it normally with your wife. :anjali:
:goodpost:

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Zom
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Zom » Tue May 07, 2019 5:55 pm

There is nothing wrong with having sex with your spouse if you are a householder, so why complicate things?
Because newcomers typically don't know what is Gradual Practice. Putting cart before the horse is their everything 8-)

dharmacorps
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by dharmacorps » Tue May 07, 2019 6:06 pm

squizzlebizzle wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:47 am

The practice of restraint is not a form of obsession. Quite the opposite.
Restraint with regard to sex for a lay person would be either only having sex with one's spouse, or abstinence from sex altogether. Forcing oneself not to ejaculate when having sex is not restraint. It is just not ejaculating while having sex, nothing more. That is why I said viewing it as more than that is an obsession/delusion.

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Pondera
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by Pondera » Tue May 07, 2019 11:51 pm

Squizzle Bizzle

I wouldn’t recommend messing with your chakras. Your root chakra is at your root for a reason. And your heart chakra is the same. “Drawing” energy from your root to your heart - I think that’s a recipe for disaster.

How often do you masturbate? How often do you look at porn? If you do at all, I’d recommend stopping all together. Your wife will thank you.

Keep in mind - if you’re newly married - get it while you can. After ten years, believe me, it will slow down. And just bust a nut, man.

If you can practice restraint from porn and masturbation, then busting a nut three times a week during intercourse is just giving your self a treat. Or five times a week. I don’t know how active you are.

In other words. Give up. Practice normal marital relations, don’t jerk off, don’t look at porn - and search for the real “pleasure” - meditative pleasure.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

form
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Re: Semen retentive sex and Buddhist practice

Post by form » Tue May 07, 2019 11:55 pm

Many when having sex with their wife but their mind were not with the wife.

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