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Re: "Me, Too!" in Buddhism

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:37 pm
by binocular
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm
Why would a lady attend a Buddhist institution and choose to have sex with a teacher?
Because she, at least intutitively, understands the authoritarian nature of religion/spirituality.

In religion/spirituality, total submission to those in positions of power is required. Of course, many religious/spiritual people find it egregious to agree to that, and so they hide behind claims that their religion is "rational", that they've made their religious choice "rationally", "logically" and so on. But a closer look at religious epistemology reveals that those are just face-saving, socially desirable claims that don't actually hold water.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:52 pm
by binocular
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 pm
Listen to how some of these goddess-worshipping feminists make a career from first, attempting to enter the harem of an elderly patriarchal authoritarian and then after that doesn't work out for them they make a career as a professional victim (which in America is often highly lucrative).
One has to make the leap to religious/spiritual faith somehow, if one is to be religious/spiritual. Some do it by engaging in sex with their religious/spiritual teachers.
Reading between the lines: these dudes basically gangbanged her and treated her like toilet paper but she kept coming back in the hope it would better her career.
Being involved in sex with one's superiors is just one of the ways in which a person submits themselves to those in positions of power in religion/spirituality. More commonly, people submit themselves in terms of their minds. Obedience is expected as a sine qua non in religion/spirituality. And few fret about that ...
If people don't start watching out for spiritual cross-dressers they are gonna get got (to use a street term). :spy:

First of all 1) know what the basics or Buddhist morality are, for God's sake, and then 2) don't give one red cent to bums who can't follow these principles but claim to be Disciples of the Buddha.

Its really that simple.
That's facile. In religions/spiritualities, there's a hidden curriculum which is the one that actually matters, the one one actually needs to learn. The hidden curriculum is possibly at odds with the official one.
Buddhism is in just as much of the need for an audit as the Roman Catholic Church and their man behind the wall with the pointy hat.
A revolution devours its children.
Throw it all out with the trash; the Tipitika can be purchased in hard copy for a tiny sum of money, far cheaper than in any other time in history, its also free in various levels of quality on the internet.
Looks like you're not aware of the many text-critical issues surrounding the Tipitaka ...
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:12 pm
If you don't trust that I did my homework than you may have to roll up your sleeves and check for yourself but I warn you, when you read about these shambala guys you may feel a bit of the nasty taste rub off on you.
Or maybe it's you who doesn't understand The Truth.

How can you, as a newcomer, at that, possibly know who teaches the True Dhamma?

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:23 am
by Coëmgenu
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 pm
The male conmen ride the spirit-circuit to wealth and fame by handing out oriental pajamas, the female groupies plug their noses while these old men grunt over them to become either a) the spirit-guide on the spirit-circuit or b) a professional-feminist-victim in academia, either a or b is Oprah-material for plugging the new Chicken-Soup-for-the-Five-Aggregates.
Why is it always about gender with you?

Men fall for these traps too.

I know of a certain Tibetan lama who managed to, through the strength of guru yoga, convince a fair amount of completely heterosexual men to be penetrated by him, allowing him to, one assumes, deify them through gestures of desire* (and also give them the AIDs virus).

*kāmamudrā

Why not "human beings in general are vulnerable to manipulation." Why does it have to be about gender?

But there is a strong taboo against being penetrated in homosexual intercourse amongst most men in general, worldwide. This was clearly the work of a determined and inspired individual, that he managed to screw so many (and screw here is meant in two senses of the word).

Do you know what it is way easier to convince men to do than convincing men to be penetrated?

Convincing them to give up their women. Or sex altogether. That isn't nearly as strong a taboo as doing it with your bisexual Tibetan guru.

A common feature of cults is women-hoarding. The alpha of the cult gets all the ladies and the other men (who are vital to the cult's functioning) are convinced to give up on sex altogether. In fact, when I was a younger man, a recall a certain number of young men decided to remove their genitals altogether during the appearance of a certain celestial Hale–Bopp at the instruction of one of these determined men, determined to control and subdue what is around them.

People in general are prone to manipulation and exploitation.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:35 pm
by binocular
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:23 am
Why not "human beings in general are vulnerable to manipulation."
/.../
People in general are prone to manipulation and exploitation.

On the grounds of what do you call the situations mentioned in this thread (sex between teacher and student in a religious/spiritual setting) "manipulation" and "exploitation"?
Can you sketch out your reasoning here?

In religion/spirituality, one is supposed to give one's teacher one's everything, from one's attention and money, to one's body. If your teacher tells you to fast, for example, and then you fast, why wouldn't you have sex with him if he tells you to have sex with him?

In a religious/spiritual setting, why is it okay to give your attention, your time, your money to someone, but not give them your body? If you let them do with your mind whatever they want to, and if you let them do various things with your body (such as when you follow their instructions on diet, sleep, exercise), why stop there, and not give them your body in a sexual way?
But there is a strong taboo against being penetrated in homosexual intercourse amongst most men in general, worldwide.
Isn't spirituality all about overcoming taboos?

I'm in no way advocating for those religious/spiritual teachers who have sex with their students. I do think it would help when discussing this topic to clarify
1. where the line is drawn between manipulation and non-manipulation, between exploitation and non-exploitation, and
2. why it is drawn there.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 pm
by cappuccino
spirituality is about truth

one has to act according to the truth

the truth is against lust, hence you act accordingly

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:00 pm
by cappuccino
(good intentions actually lead to heaven)

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:12 pm
by binocular
Perhaps for some people, having sex with their teacher in a religious/spiritual setting actually has a liberating effect.
Perhaps it is precisely through sex with his teacher that a particular teacher came to his attainments.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:16 pm
by cappuccino
binocular wrote: Perhaps for some people
perhaps words are potent and dangerous

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:19 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
binocular wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:12 pm
Perhaps it is precisely through sex with his teacher that a particular teacher came to his attainments.
Attained what, exactly? AIDS?

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:33 pm
by binocular
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:19 pm
Attained what, exactly? AIDS?
Attained whatever the promised goal or attainment of that particular religious/spiritual path is said to be.

An implicit assumption by the OP seems to be that all religious/spiritual traditions/schools/paths have the same goal, the same objective, just different ways to get there. But do they really have the same goal?

Perhaps the goal of some paths is to attain liberation from some particular social taboos (operating under the belief that freedom from taboos is all it takes and as good as it gets). Having sex with one's teacher could certainly help toward that goal.

The goal of some other paths seems to be simply to keep the lineage alive, to maintain their staus quo, to survive as a religious community. In such paths, it makes sense that those in positions of power will go to great lengths to weed out dangerous potential members or to subdue them. Again, demanding sex from them can serve that purpose.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:37 pm
by cappuccino
I don't know why anyone takes trouble to speak evil words

:shrug:

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:38 pm
by binocular
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:37 pm
I don't know why anyone takes trouble to speak evil words
Power makes the world go round.

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:42 pm
by cappuccino
But you, O foolish man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly grasped. You have undermined your own future and have created much demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering for a long time.

Alagaddupama Sutta

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:46 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
binocular wrote:Attained whatever the promised goal or attainment of that particular religious/spiritual path is said to be...
Thanks BInocular.

It's times like these that I'm thankful the Noble Eightfold Path can be practiced outside the structures of organized religion. Whilst, as far as organized religions go, Theravada Buddhism is very good, in large part to the existence of the Vinaya, it too is not without its arbitrary cultural customs, constraints, expectations and ritualistic obligations either. The more one becomes independent in the teaching, and comes to value freedom (and the ultimate freedom, nibbana) the less appealing that it is to be constrained by people, doctrines or customs that one does not regard as perfect and without fault.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:00 pm
by AgarikaJ
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 pm
spirituality is about truth

one has to act according to the truth

the truth is against lust, hence you act accordingly
I made the point before, and make it again; the examples brought forward in this thread have nothing to do with Theravada. Therefore your conclusion that spirituality must negate 'lust', like this is some kind of natural law, is simply not correct.

Somebody signing up with a Mahasidda yogic master -- they are as 'Buddhist' as they come, with all the temple bells you could imagine -- should actually be upset if he is not initiated into 'higher knowledge' (the secret Tantras); there are a number of clearly proscribed ways for this and they are, from what I have read, certainly far from Theravada Sila and Western ideas of self-determination over one's body.

To imply, just because those are 'Buddhist' masters, that they inherently are forced to follow a certain moral codex leads very often to dangerous confusion, not just because even knowledgeable people completely talk past each other -- as has already happened numerous times in this thread alone -- but also it endangers less knowledgeable potential 'followers' who could entirely mistake to what they are signing up for.

As one expects them to be informed adults, maybe some responsibility for their experience should rest with them. As always: inform yourself beforehand and choose your teachers wisely (an advice applicable to Theravada students as well).

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am
I at least tried to make my answer about Theravada Buddhism.

As for the last two pages we are discussing about anything but, would it not be preferable to have this topic in 'Connections to other paths'?

I am known on here to enjoy a discussion about things quite far from Theravada, but this thread is a hodge-podge that will make no sense at all to anybody coming at 'Buddhism' without some good foundation on the differences of Theravada, Japanese Zen, modern Tibetan Mahasiddism and its supposedly happy offspring of 'Modern Western Buddhism' (I disagree strongly that this is actually the case).

To try to have a coherent discussion on this is impossible if this is not handled in the separation it deserves.