Forgiveness and martial arts training

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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Everaldo
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Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Everaldo » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:54 pm

Years ago a person seriously injured me in martial art training. This person intentionally hurt me. This person hurt me by malice and wickedness. Because of him, I spent months with pain, with family problems and several other problems. I can not forgive him. I have heard the Buddha talk about love (metta), compassion (karuna), and patience (khanti), but I never heard Buddha talk about forgiveness. What is the Buddhist view of forgiveness? How can you forgive a person who causes you harm?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:48 pm

Ajahn Thanissaro has this to say of forgiveness:
The Pali word for forgiveness-khama-also means "the earth." A mind like the earth is non-reactive and unperturbed. When you forgive me for harming you, you decide not to retaliate, to seek no revenge. You don't have to like me. You simply unburden yourself of the weight of resentment and cut the cycle of retribution that would otherwise keep us ensnarled in an ugly samsaric wrestling match. This is a gift you can give us both, totally on your own, without my having to know or understand what you've done.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ation.html

There isn't a great deal in the suttas that deals directly with forgiveness, but forgiveness is just one of the many aspects of the process of letting go. Rather than holding on to feeling aggrieved, we take steps to relinquish that feeling by thinking and acting in ways that make sense of it and allow it to fade away. Injury to the body and disruption of our circumstances are things that happen in the best-regulated and most peaceful lives. They just happen. What we might want to do is to cease proliferating around that damage to ourselves and to our self-esteem, because that proliferation and dwelling on narratives causes us a second problem in addition to the damage.

One finds malevolent and brutal people everywhere. I used to be a martial arts instructor myself, and appreciate that there are some really fine individuals who practice and develop themselves. But there are still nasty people who enjoy hurting others. The same applies to work. There are people there who would destroy your career and make you homeless, and enjoy the process; the damage is done socially and economically, but still gives rise to resentment. And, of course, anyone can be the victim of crime. When we are harmed, it's perfectly natural to dwell on the process and replay it, and think about how we might have avoided it. The only thing we can do is to let go of that feeling of resentment.

Exactly how you do this is a matter of personal trial and error. There are many people who will give you practical advice - a type of meditation, or a way to think about the events, etc - and you might feel that you are "not doing it right" if the forgiveness does not come. But keep trying, recognise what the root problem is, and follow whichever practice makes you feel a little better.

JohnK
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by JohnK » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Everaldo wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:54 pm
Years ago a person seriously injured me in martial art training. This person intentionally hurt me. This person hurt me by malice and wickedness. Because of him, I spent months with pain, with family problems and several other problems. I can not forgive him. I have heard the Buddha talk about love (metta), compassion (karuna), and patience (khanti), but I never heard Buddha talk about forgiveness. What is the Buddhist view of forgiveness? How can you forgive a person who causes you harm?
Here is an essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2018) called All Winners, No Losers: The Buddha’s Teachings on Animosity & Forgiveness.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/uncol ... eness.html
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

Virgo
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Virgo » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:03 pm

The story of Kalayakkhini:

http://www.vipassana.info/a.htm#Kalayakkhini

:anjali:


Kevin...
The Hunger Site

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santa100
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by santa100 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Everaldo wrote:Years ago a person seriously injured me in martial art training. This person intentionally hurt me. This person hurt me by malice and wickedness. Because of him, I spent months with pain, with family problems and several other problems. I can not forgive him. I have heard the Buddha talk about love (metta), compassion (karuna), and patience (khanti), but I never heard Buddha talk about forgiveness. What is the Buddhist view of forgiveness? How can you forgive a person who causes you harm?
Well, it's too late now. Depends on the situation, you should've reacted with the proper response back then. If that guy was really a bully, then you should've responded with the same exact language that a bully can understand: the same exact pain at the same exact spot, not out of hatred, but out of compassion to save the future victims under his hand. Anyway, since it's already in the past, the only thing you can do now is to let it go and be at peace. Be kind, but also be strong.

lostitude
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:49 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:36 pm
If that guy was really a bully, then you should've responded with the same exact language that a bully can understand: the same exact pain at the same exact spot, not out of hatred, but out of compassion to save the future victims under his hand.
I seriously doubt that would have worked. Many bullies are people who feel or have felt downtrodden themselves, they don't pick on weaker than themselves for no reason. That would have been counterproductive on top of contradicting buddhist teachings.

santa100
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by santa100 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:15 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:49 pm
I seriously doubt that would have worked. Many bullies are people who feel or have felt downtrodden themselves, they don't pick on weaker than themselves for no reason. That would have been counterproductive on top of contradicting buddhist teachings.
Were you a small frail kid who used to get bullied back in 5th grade? Did you get firsthand experience? Well, I did. And I quickly found out the most efficient way to solve the problem the day I became good at Judo. I think I did save the lives of many small frail kids in the same class the day I threw that big bad bully flat on his back. Don't you worry, he still walks right after that.

lostitude
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:24 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:15 pm
Were you a small frail kid who used to get bullied back in 5th grade? Did you get firsthand experience?
Yes I did, so your "argument from authority" doesn't hold.
I think I did save the lives of many small frail kids in the same class the day I threw that big bad bully flat on his back.
No because he probably went to pick on other kids, that year or during other years, at school or outside, to vent his anger and frustration that you had no idea about back then. Good job.
Don't you worry, he still walks right after that.
That sounds just like you :thinking:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:43 pm

Please could members restrict themselves to posts which are likely to address the concerns of the OP? I would have thought that this was more about forgiveness in the present, rather than what should have been done in the past. There might be some useful discussion around how to deal with bullies and aggression from a Buddhist perspective, but anyone wishing to explore this theme should start another thread.

Thanks. :anjali:

santa100
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by santa100 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:49 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:24 pm
That sounds just like you :thinking:
Case in point. Typical bully behavior right there.

lostitude
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:05 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:49 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:24 pm
That sounds just like you :thinking:
Case in point. Typical bully behavior right there.
Yet you are the one flexing your muscles on pretty much every thread you decide to join. :roll:

Coming back to the OP's concern, my 2 cents would be the same thing I replied to santa100, i.e. many people are actually mean for a reason. This does not make it acceptable, but at least it helps to understand why they act the way they do, which can be the beginning of sympathy and thus, forgiveness.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:06 pm

Greetings,

OK, that's enough squabbling thanks.

:focus:

(Reminder, as per the Terms of Service - Section 1... "If you find anything objectionable, let the administrators or moderators know using the Report Post function, but refrain from posting public responses because meta-discussion has the tendency to derail topics.")

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Volo
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Volo » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:43 am

What is the Buddhist view of forgiveness? How can you forgive a person who causes you harm?
The story of Dīghāvu (Vinaya, Kd.10.2.3), where Prince Dīghāvu was able to forgive the king Brahmādatta, who killed his parents and took his kingdom is worth reading (it is told by the Buddha on the occasion of Kosambi quarrel).

Also here was a similar topic: Sutta teachings about forgiveness

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Nwad
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Re: Forgiveness and martial arts training

Post by Nwad » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:16 am

The first victim of one who acts through anger and ill will is this same person.

Anger and ill will is a great suffering, so we have to be compationate to those who suffer this pain. Because of people's delusion, they dont understand their own suffering, the cause, the end and the way, thats why while they feel pain of anger and ill will they express it by unwholesome actions, they externalize this pain by unwholesome acion, but we should forgive them their suffering and delusion, like we forgive childrens. It is for the hapiness of everybody.

One way to overcome dukkha when someone steal something from you, is to offer this object to this person, by wishing him well being and that this object will be more usefull to him than it was to you. In tha same way one should be "happy" that this evil person does the unwholesome action agains you, who is endowed with compassion and wisdom, who is able to forgive another's suffering, rather to some another person who will suffer from this evil action, generate resentment and anger, making much demerit for himself and others.

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