Being Offended

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
markandeya
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Re: Being Offended

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:25 pm

Some may not understand cultral regulations and its fine to advise them, but if they persits dont be surprised if they get whacked.

To be personally offended is one thing, but thats a course of life and dealing with those things is a practice, but I still hold firm that sometimes it not good to just be walked over.

I know many examples in India where Christian missionaries are purposely provoking natives, walking around with vishnu on a cross and other provocative gestures.

Look what happened in Myanmar with the Muslim situation, the local Buddhist was just supposed to say yeah fine its ok do what you want were Buddhist we dont take offence, and if they react then they are hypocrites. Its just normal for people to take offence and sometimes its justified. Although I do feel the main issues in Myanmar is provocation by western powers to create instability in the country.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Being Offended

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:25 pm
I know many examples in India where Christian missionaries are purposely provoking natives, walking around with vishnu on a cross and other provocative gestures.
With the number of mobile phones in India currently exceeding three quarters of a billion, those sneaky missionaries will surely be outed on the internet before long. They are lucky so far...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vishn ... 42&bih=602

markandeya
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Re: Being Offended

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:15 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:55 pm
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:25 pm
I know many examples in India where Christian missionaries are purposely provoking natives, walking around with vishnu on a cross and other provocative gestures.
With the number of mobile phones in India currently exceeding three quarters of a billion, those sneaky missionaries will surely be outed on the internet before long. They are lucky so far...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vishn ... 42&bih=602
Lets hope so, but I am not so sure because there are major propaganda wars in India like elsewhere. It may have to get worse before it gets better but I do see India slowly being rebuilt up from the inside again to its former identity, which is by nature very tolerant and welcoming of all forms of spirituality.

I was just thinking about the situation with Gandhi and his hi ahimsa movement where most people think that his non compliance without aggression was the main reason the British gave India its independence back, that may hold true but only a small scale, the main reason was due to Subhas Chandra Bose building up a military force.

The sikh social and spiritual dynamic is very profound, they will respect and incorporate all spiritual systems but they will never be walked over and will defend others rights. I think they have a very good balance to keep order, they are very compatible with Buddhism on a spiritual level, scholars wont agree, but what do they know :thinking: .

Its all a bit sad and unnecessary but ignorance is what it is.

JohnK
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Re: Being Offended

Post by JohnK » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:41 am
The stronger the sense of self, the easier it is to be offended
I think it is interesting/ironic that from the Western psychological perspective, the exact opposite seems correct:
"The weaker the sense of self, the easier it is to be offended" -- where self-worth is dependent on the signals received from others.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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one_awakening
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Re: Being Offended

Post by one_awakening » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:52 am

JohnK wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm
I think it is interesting/ironic that from the Western psychological perspective, the exact opposite seems correct:
"The weaker the sense of self, the easier it is to be offended"
Yes. People think a stronger sense of self makes them stronger. What I've noticed living in a western country is how easily people get offended over the most trivial things theses days.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Being Offended

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:36 am

one_awakening wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:52 am
JohnK wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm
I think it is interesting/ironic that from the Western psychological perspective, the exact opposite seems correct:
"The weaker the sense of self, the easier it is to be offended"
Yes. People think a stronger sense of self makes them stronger. What I've noticed living in a western country is how easily people get offended over the most trivial things theses days.
Yes, I think you are both right, and this seems to be quite a remarkable change in how we interact. It's also the case that being offended does actually get results, and this causes a lot of people to pretend they are offended, or to express more offence than they actually feel, in order to manipulate others.

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budo
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Re: Being Offended

Post by budo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:48 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:36 am
one_awakening wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:52 am
JohnK wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:14 pm
I think it is interesting/ironic that from the Western psychological perspective, the exact opposite seems correct:
"The weaker the sense of self, the easier it is to be offended"
Yes. People think a stronger sense of self makes them stronger. What I've noticed living in a western country is how easily people get offended over the most trivial things theses days.
Yes, I think you are both right, and this seems to be quite a remarkable change in how we interact. It's also the case that being offended does actually get results, and this causes a lot of people to pretend they are offended, or to express more offence than they actually feel, in order to manipulate others.
This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time on deep level.

Take for example someone taking martial arts or self defense, in my opinion they are wasting their life, specifically their mind, living in fear. The time they spend doing these courses they could do something more worthwhile like say skiing the alps, traveling, or working on a productive goal like a business or meditation, etc..

I actually took a lot of martial arts growing up (judo, tae kwon do, krav maga) but I realized that it was all a waste of time. I'm not saying that dangers don't exist in the world, they do, but spending your life preparing for rare negative scenarios that are inevitable is focusing on the wrong thing and wasting life. How do you know you won't die by heart attack, or choking on food, or car accident, or stroke, etc.. In the Jataka tales there are arahants who get eaten by animals, and they don't fight back because fighting back isn't going to change the nature of the universe, all fighting back does is buy you time.

So all these people who profit off being offended they're not going or getting anywhere, they think they're pushing themselves forward but actually their poor mental activities is keeping them back, so they're just spinning wheels in place without getting anywhere, just wasting energy without attaining anything.

Hard to explain what I'm trying to get at, but in a way it's a self-made trap that people put themselves into. Basically the moment you enter a negative mental state, the action that comes from it has already made you lose and not gain anything. Any action that comes from the 5 hindrances, like say fear -> martial arts or fear -> survivalism, is a net loss from the get go. This is not to say that you should be naive and travel to the worst parts of the world, those actions also fueled by hindrances.

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Bundokji
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Re: Being Offended

Post by Bundokji » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:25 am

I guess any idea, if taken to an extreme, can cause problems.

My sister has an apartment and she rents it out as an investment. Two days ago, i was supposed to sign a lease with potential tenants at 1:00pm, but they did not show up on time and never called to explain the delay.

When they knew that i decided not to cancel the agreement and not to rent them the apartment, they began to call, trying to come up with excuses of which none were convincing. I explained that we all face unexpected circumstances, but we at least have the courtesy to call. I also told them that their behavior in this particular instance does not make me feel that they can be trusted in paying the rent on time of o sign the contract with them.

The way i acted implies that i got offended by their lack of punctuality, but i do not see my action as egoistic or against the Buddha's teachings. I have a duty of care towards my sister, so signing the contract with them after what they did would not be very prudent. Also when they see that people might get offended when they don't commit to their promises, this might become a driver to change their future behavior and to act more honestly with other people.

In my mind, the best thing you can do to some people is to show them that their wrong actions have consequences. The quality of your action depends on your intention.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Being Offended

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:36 am

Relevant:
Akkosa Sutta wrote: I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the brahman Akkosaka[1] Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests."

"And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?"

"Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies."

"And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?"

"If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine."

"In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

"Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours."

"The king together with his court know this of Master Gotama — 'Gotama the contemplative is an arahant' — and yet still Master Gotama gets angry."[2]

[The Buddha:]
Whence is there anger
for one free from anger,
tamed,
living in tune —
one released through right knowing,
calmed
& Such.

You make things worse
when you flare up
at someone who's angry.
Whoever doesn't flare up
at someone who's angry
wins a battle
hard to win.

You live for the good of both
— your own, the other's —
when, knowing the other's provoked,
you mindfully grow calm.

When you work the cure of both
— your own, the other's —
those who think you a fool
know nothing of Dhamma.
Source
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Bundokji
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Re: Being Offended

Post by Bundokji » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Equally relevant
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary.

Then Prince Abhaya went to Nigantha Nataputta and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Nigantha Nataputta said to him, "Come, now, prince. Refute the words of Gotama the contemplative, and this admirable report about you will spread afar: 'The words of Gotama the contemplative — so mighty, so powerful — were refuted by Prince Abhaya!'"

"But how, venerable sir, will I refute the words of Gotama the contemplative — so mighty, so powerful?"

"Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: 'Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?' If Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, lord, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if Gotama the contemplative, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, lord, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut[1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."

Responding, "As you say, venerable sir," Prince Abhaya got up from his seat, bowed down to Nigantha Nataputta, circumambulated him, and then went to the Blessed One. On arrival, he bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he glanced up at the sun and thought, "Today is not the time to refute the Blessed One's words. Tomorrow in my own home I will overturn the Blessed One's words." So he said to the Blessed One, "May the Blessed One, together with three others, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

Then Prince Abhaya, understanding the Blessed One's acquiescence, got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One, circumambulated him, and left.

Then, after the night had passed, the Blessed One early in the morning put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, went to Prince Abhaya's home. On arrival, he sat down on a seat made ready. Prince Abhaya, with his own hand, served & satisfied the Blessed One with fine staple & non-staple foods. Then, when the Blessed One had eaten and had removed his hand from his bowl, Prince Abhaya took a lower seat and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?"

"Prince, there is no categorical yes-or-no answer to that."

"Then right here, lord, the Niganthas are destroyed."

"But prince, why do you say, 'Then right here, lord, the Niganthas are destroyed'?"

"Just yesterday, lord, I went to Nigantha Nataputta and... he said to me...'Come now, prince. Go to Gotama the contemplative and on arrival say this: "Lord, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others?"... Just as if a two-horned chestnut were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when Gotama the contemplative is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up.'"

Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"

"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."

"In the same way, prince:

[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

"Lord, when wise nobles or brahmans, householders or contemplatives, having formulated questions, come to the Tathagata and ask him, does this line of reasoning appear to his awareness beforehand — 'If those who approach me ask this, I — thus asked — will answer in this way' — or does the Tathagata come up with the answer on the spot?"

"In that case, prince, I will ask you a counter-question. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: are you skilled in the parts of a chariot?"

"Yes, lord. I am skilled in the parts of a chariot."

"And what do you think: When people come & ask you, 'What is the name of this part of the chariot?' does this line of reasoning appear to your awareness beforehand — 'If those who approach me ask this, I — thus asked — will answer in this way' — or do you come up with the answer on the spot?"

"Lord, I am renowned for being skilled in the parts of a chariot. All the parts of a chariot are well-known to me. I come up with the answer on the spot."

"In the same way, prince, when wise nobles or brahmans, householders or contemplatives, having formulated questions, come to the Tathagata and ask him, he comes up with the answer on the spot. Why is that? Because the property of the Dhamma is thoroughly penetrated by the Tathagata. From his thorough penetration of the property of the Dhamma, he comes up with the answer on the spot." [2]

When this was said, Prince Abhaya said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Being Offended

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:01 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:36 am
It's also the case that being offended does actually get results, and this causes a lot of people to pretend they are offended, or to express more offence than they actually feel, in order to manipulate others.
Bingo.

budo wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:48 am
So all these people who profit off being offended they're not going or getting anywhere, they think they're pushing themselves forward but actually their poor mental activities is keeping them back, so they're just spinning wheels in place without getting anywhere, just wasting energy without attaining anything.
Or perhaps this is just a fool's consolation.

What people can attain by easily feeling offended is the upper hand in the interaction. This is certainly evolutionarily advantageous. In the end, this is what matters.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Being Offended

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:08 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:25 am
The way i acted implies that i got offended by their lack of punctuality, but i do not see my action as egoistic
You've done due diligence, as you are supposed to, as someone involved in a business transaction.
It's rather fascinating (although I, personally, find it sad) that so often, doing due diligence is perceived as offensive.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

JohnK
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Re: Being Offended

Post by JohnK » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:49 pm

There is "the experience of being offended" (dukkha, based on attachment to a self view that was just maligned) and there is "a claim of being offended" (speech).
There can be four situations. Which 4? ;)

Not being offended and not claiming to be (perhaps due to having no attachment to the maligned self view and having no agenda and/or a commitment to honest communication),
Not being offended and claiming to be (lying, presumably for strategic purposes).
Being offended and not claiming to be (likely indicating some attachment to the self view, but also restraint based on a desire to "not make waves" -- for any number of reasons).
Being offended and claiming to be (some attachment to self view and a desire to have it be known -- for any number of reasons).

(I'm not sure that actually had any value -- but it was interesting to go through the exercise, following the MO of a great teacher!) :)
Last edited by JohnK on Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

binocular
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Re: Being Offended

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:55 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:49 pm
There is "the experience of being offended" (dukkha, based on attachment to a self view that was just maligned) and there is "a claim of being offended" (speech).
There can be four situations. Which 4? /.../
You'd need to add the permutations for "feeling offended".
"Being offended" is objective, according to the specific social norms that the offender and the offendee live by.
For example, in Western cultures, spitting at someone is generally considred offensive and the spat at person is then objectively offended.

"Feeling offended" is subjective, and may be consistent with "being offended" or not.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

JohnK
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Re: Being Offended

Post by JohnK » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:59 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:55 pm
JohnK wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:49 pm
There is "the experience of being offended" (dukkha, based on attachment to a self view that was just maligned) and there is "a claim of being offended" (speech).
There can be four situations. Which 4? /.../
You'd need to add the permutations for "feeling offended".
"Being offended" is objective, according to the specific social norms that the offender and the offendee live by.
For example, in Western cultures, spitting at someone is generally considred offensive and the spat at person is then objectively offended.

"Feeling offended" is subjective, and may be consistent with "being offended" or not.
Yes, I meant to be referring to the subjective by using the phrase "the experience of" and the word "dukkha."
(And, yes, agreeing on what is actually, really an objective offense would be difficult -- cultural, sub-cultural, personal differences -- and perhaps an exercise less relevant to "the end of suffering.")
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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