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Hello everyone,
I feel a strong aversion against blue veins (the "normal" ones, not "spider veins"). More specifically, I am a Caucasian male with a Caucasian wife and a Caucasian child. We all have relatively fair skin and three years ago I noticed that blue veins are visible on the backs of my wife's hands. Since then, I "discovered" more blue veins on her temples, arms, legs, feet, etc. I also found many similar veins on myself, our child (albeit in both cases to a lesser extent) and on many other people.
It bothers me so much that I often don't look at my wife because I fear that seeing such a vein would trigger an unpleasant emotional reaction. Or sometimes I "seek" these veins, yet feel strong aversion when I "find" them, especially on my wife and child. I also ruminate daily about it, and even fantasize about divorcing my wife and finding a partner with very dark skin.
But that course of action seems not rational/sensible to me because
a) I myself have these veins
b) most people I know have these veins
c) most people don't seem to care about these blue veins as much or at all
d) it would break up my little family
e) because I'm worried that in a new relationship I would "find" something else that upsets me (e.g. body hair, wrinkles, etc.)
I talked with two psychotherapists about it and they couldn't help and basically said nothing can be done about it. However, based on everything I've learned about psychology, Buddhism, etc., I don't believe that.
Therefore, I started working on this issue myself several days ago. Firstly, I acknowledged that it's not a sign of disease, that most people with fair skin have visible blue veins to some extent, that these veins fulfil a vital function, that even people on whom they are invisible still have them and that most people don't seem to care much about them. Secondly, I realised that using aversion doesn't help and that fearfully looking away is not the solution. I therefore started to continue looking at them until my feeling of aversion has grown weaker. I feel that these two methods have already worked to some extent but may either need more time/practice or require additional methods/insights.
Can you help me with this issue?
Strong aversion against blue veins
- Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
when you are seeing the body as it is you will be repulsed by it, and thats not just veins, it's head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, all of it is not only repulsive but impermanent so sorry you are worried about your family but dispassion is a good trade-off
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Hi trefobe
You could also use this as an exercise if you have a meditation practice. After developing some calm, try bringing to mind something you don't want (such as the images you describe), and ask the above questions (what does the aversion feel like, etc). Then, after a time, bring to mind something you want and ask the same questions about the feelings of attraction. Compare and contrast the feelings. Where do they send the mind? What do they do to the body?
Mike
That sounds like a good approach. I would suggest that in cases like this, where aversion/fear/etc arises, you try to focus on the feeling of aversion itself, rather than the object of aversion (which can just make it worse). What does the aversion/fear/etc feel like? Where do you feel it? Somewhere in the body? Just in the mind?trefobe wrote: ↑Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:38 pm Secondly, I realised that using aversion doesn't help and that fearfully looking away is not the solution. I therefore started to continue looking at them until my feeling of aversion has grown weaker. I feel that these two methods have already worked to some extent but may either need more time/practice or require additional methods/insights.
You could also use this as an exercise if you have a meditation practice. After developing some calm, try bringing to mind something you don't want (such as the images you describe), and ask the above questions (what does the aversion feel like, etc). Then, after a time, bring to mind something you want and ask the same questions about the feelings of attraction. Compare and contrast the feelings. Where do they send the mind? What do they do to the body?
Mike
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Blue veins are simply the lack of red light waves returning to your eyes.
Your emotional reaction is not grounded in logic and reality. Blue veins have nothing to do with health..Blue light does not penetrate human tissue as deeply as red light does. As a result, veins that are close to the surface of the skin will be more likely to reflect blue light back to the eye.
The oxygen-depleted blood that veins carry also tends to absorb red light more than blue light. When the dark red blood absorbs more red light, blue light is more likely to be reflected back to our eyes.
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Afaik for the most part it is due to a lower bodyfat % that one sees the veins. There is nothing intrinsically attractive about veins but perhaps you can get rid of the aversion by cultivating perception of equanimity.
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Contrary to what you may have heard, or been told, I think this is something that can be helped by psychotherapy or other treatment.
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Another thing you can do is to observe the aversion when it arises. Experience how it feels , where the feeling manifests in your body, its shape, tightness, how it feels. Aversion arose because your eyes came into contact with the veins. But when you direct the mind at the aversion itself, the stimulus is cut off. In addition, by consistent and repeated application of this awareness, the reaction will weaken over time.
I used this to reduce my unusual fear of heights to a normal level. I say normal because I think we all should have a modicum fear of heights for our personal safety
I used this to reduce my unusual fear of heights to a normal level. I say normal because I think we all should have a modicum fear of heights for our personal safety
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
This technique is called exposure therapy. It is possible to do on your own, but having someone trained in it can be helpful. The effectiveness rests on being exposed to the trigger until the negative reaction subsides. Having a helper can make sure you stick with it until the feelings go away.
The therapists you talked to are wrong. You probably want to be looking for someone trained in cognitive behaviour therapy with a speciality in phobias. In the mean time you can just google exposure therapy and read information that comes from a trusted source.
Good luck and good for you for asking for help and being committed to overcoming this.
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Thank you for all your replies so far. I appreciate it!
@ Dhammarakkhito
I can see how developing repulsion may intially be helpful for a monk who was previously overwhelmed by sexual desire, but for a married layperson it seems harmful to me (being repulsed by my veins and my wife's veins does not help).
@ mikenz66 & pilgrim
Why do you think that it is more helpful to focus on the aversive reaction instead of the object of aversion? Do you recommend to look away from the stimulus (veins) and focusing on the aversive reaction or to continue to look at them but focus on the aversive reaction simultaneously?
@ budo
You are right, I know these scientific/logical facts. They have helped me somewhat but logic alone has been insufficient so far to overcome my aversion.
@ [name redacted by admin]
Yes, low body fat percentage also seems to play a role, but as far as I know it is not nearly as strong a factor as skin colour. I agree that one can take the position that there is nothing intrinsically attractive about veins but being repulsed by them has caused me considerable suffering.
@ dharmacorps
Yes, I think that too. Do you have any more specific ideas or recommendations?
@ BKh
I am somewhat familar with exposure therapy and used it several years ago to reduce my arachnophobia (phobia of spiders). Finding a therapist with such a focus seems like a good idea.
@ Dhammarakkhito
I can see how developing repulsion may intially be helpful for a monk who was previously overwhelmed by sexual desire, but for a married layperson it seems harmful to me (being repulsed by my veins and my wife's veins does not help).
@ mikenz66 & pilgrim
Why do you think that it is more helpful to focus on the aversive reaction instead of the object of aversion? Do you recommend to look away from the stimulus (veins) and focusing on the aversive reaction or to continue to look at them but focus on the aversive reaction simultaneously?
@ budo
You are right, I know these scientific/logical facts. They have helped me somewhat but logic alone has been insufficient so far to overcome my aversion.
@ [name redacted by admin]
Yes, low body fat percentage also seems to play a role, but as far as I know it is not nearly as strong a factor as skin colour. I agree that one can take the position that there is nothing intrinsically attractive about veins but being repulsed by them has caused me considerable suffering.
@ dharmacorps
Yes, I think that too. Do you have any more specific ideas or recommendations?
@ BKh
I am somewhat familar with exposure therapy and used it several years ago to reduce my arachnophobia (phobia of spiders). Finding a therapist with such a focus seems like a good idea.
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Because it's the reaction that's the problem.trefobe wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:15 pm @ mikenz66 & pilgrim
Why do you think that it is more helpful to focus on the aversive reaction instead of the object of aversion? Do you recommend to look away from the stimulus (veins) and focusing on the aversive reaction or to continue to look at them but focus on the aversive reaction simultaneously?
It's not so much "looking away" as focussing on a different part of the total experience.
Did you try examining your reaction?
Mike
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Thank you mikenz66, that makes sense. I will start to practice it daily and tell you how it goes.
- Pseudobabble
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Realise that you come into contact with far worse things, on a daily basis, without knowing it. How many parasites live in your gut? How much dried and vaporized dog-sh*t did you breathe in with all the dust today? There's really no getting away from gross things.
Rahula Sutta wrote: "Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Gawd, something else to worry about.Pseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:01 pm How many parasites live in your gut? How much dried and vaporized dog-sh*t did you breathe in with all the dust today?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Strong aversion against blue veins
Try blue kasina meditation. It helps you to develop beautiful perceptions of blue objects. You'd be surprised at how effective it is, even before you reach absorption. Here's a link to a pdf that explains it: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 3nsW6qjW_e
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.com • http://greatergood.com/ • www.ripple.org • www.thenonprofits.com
http://freerice.com • http://greatergood.com/ • www.ripple.org • www.thenonprofits.com