Dana and debt

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:08 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:14 am
In regards to kamma, it arguably is talking about material wealth
"But here some woman or man is a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmans. Due to having performed and completed such kamma, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is rich wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to riches, that is to say, to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmans
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... nymo.html
Thanks but there is no evidence this is a physical result from a material gift. Regardless, MN 135 was spoken to a little Brahmin boy student (a non-Buddhist).
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:09 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 pm
'''Whatever there may be in our family that can be given away, all that we will share unreservedly with the virtuous ones who are of good character.' It is in such a way that you should train yourselves. "
Hi, is this a sutta? and if so can i get a link, im interested in reading the whole thing.

Thanks, :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:13 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:41 am
Dont get discouraged. The Buddha gave away his in own eyes in a past life without ever worrying about the repercussions. to truly develop the perfection of dana one must give trusting in its benefits. dont be stupid about it, but give freely and with pure intentions the way Anathapindika, Visakha and Prince Vessantara did.
Instead of posting about mythology, why don't you post from your own personal experience about giving away parts of your body? Many people need organ donations.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:41 am
Even John D Rockefeller, regularly donated 10% of his income to his church (who you give to doesn't matter, giving to other religions is totally fine as well) and still ended up the richest person in recorded history.
He made his wealth from unscrupulous practices. His grandson funded the Kinsey Institute, which did sexual research using pedophiles to promote the sexual revolution.




Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:13 am

Instead of posting about mythology, why don't you post from your own personal experience about giving away parts of your body?
Because i dont have any. unless you count blood and plasma. and i dont consider Buddhist stories anymore myths than the other suttas.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:13 am
He made his wealth from unscrupulous practices. His son funded the Kinsey Institute, which did sexual research using pedophiles to promote the sexual revolution.
correct. but my point is still valid, just because theirs a flaw on an unrelated note doesnt mean the particular principle im talking about is inaccurate.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:16 am
correct. but my point is still valid, just because theirs a flaw on an unrelated note doesnt mean the particular principle im talking about is inaccurate.
Its illogical. Since there is so much connection between greed, evil & wealth; MN 135 interpreted materialistically appears very illogical.
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:21 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 am
Its illogical. Since there is so much connection between greed, evil & wealth
Do you have a sutta reference for this connection? this is a Buddhist forum so you need to provide sutta references and not use things like real world examples.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:23 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:21 am
Do you have a sutta reference for this connection? this is a Buddhist forum so you need to provide sutta references and not use things like real world examples.
I never heard the above before. :rofl: As I posted, MN 135 was spoken to the non-Buddhist little Brahmin boy Brahma student.
Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

DN 15
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:24 am

:strawman:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:23 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:21 am
Do you have a sutta reference for this connection? this is a Buddhist forum so you need to provide sutta references and not use things like real world examples.
I never heard the above before. :rofl: As I posted, MN 135 was spoken to the non-Buddhist little Brahmin boy Brahma student.
maybe not that particular line, but ive seen similar-ish arguments.

I clearly wasnt being serious. I was poking fun at a common strawman argument on the forum that whenever some1 uses a non sutta argument to convey their POV some1 deflects the evidence by just asking for a sutta reference and that only sutta references or Buddhist contexts are allowed cuz its a Buddhist forum even tho they aren't even an admin. Tho it seems the ppl who actually use this strawman seriously whenever they disagree with a point themselves dont even believe it since it's only used whenever convenient to them and not consistently throughout the forum.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
Posts: 519
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Location: United States

Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:23 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:21 am
Do you have a sutta reference for this connection? this is a Buddhist forum so you need to provide sutta references and not use things like real world examples.
I never heard the above before. :rofl: As I posted, MN 135 was spoken to the non-Buddhist little Brahmin boy Brahma student.
Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

DN 15
Okay, so this was my fault. i wasnt specific. i meant the connection between wealth and evil, not greed and evil.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:32 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:27 am
Okay, so this was my fault. i wasnt specific. i meant the connection between wealth and evil, not greed and evil.
Well monks aren't wealthy, unless they give teachings to Brahmins to give monks things. This shows a connection between being poor and having virtue.
Brahmins have wealth as their ambition. They explore for wisdom. They’re committed to the hymns. They insist on sacrifice. Their ultimate goal is the Brahmā realm.”

“Brāhmaṇā kho, brāhmaṇa, bhogādhippāyā paññūpavicārā mantādhiṭṭhānā yaññābhinivesā brahmalokapariyosānā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.52/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:32 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:27 am
Okay, so this was my fault. i wasnt specific. i meant the connection between wealth and evil, not greed and evil.
Well monks aren't wealthy, unless they give teachings to Brahmins to give monks things.
Brahmins have wealth as their ambition. They explore for wisdom. They’re committed to the hymns. They insist on sacrifice. Their ultimate goal is the Brahmā realm.”

“Brāhmaṇā kho, brāhmaṇa, bhogādhippāyā paññūpavicārā mantādhiṭṭhānā yaññābhinivesā brahmalokapariyosānā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.52/en/sujato

this answers the MN 135 argument, which i never disputed, this does not answer what i actually posted. I dont call that evil
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:36 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 am
this answers the MN 135 argument, which i never disputed, this does not answer what i actually posted.
Why don't you provide real life examples of how to accrue material wealth while being virtuous, i.e., harmless? Thanks
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:36 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:36 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 am
this answers the MN 135 argument, which i never disputed, this does not answer what i actually posted.
Why don't you provide real life examples of how to accrue material wealth while being virtuous, i.e., harmless? Thanks
Im not even disputing your interpretation of MN135!
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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