Dana and debt

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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TamHanhHi
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Dana and debt

Post by TamHanhHi »

I'm looking for some wisdom on knowing how to balance material generosity when one has lots of debt. I know generosity comes in many forms (time, metta, sharing the dhamma, etc.), but when it comes to material generosity—what's the line between stinginess and saving money to pay off your debt? Any insight would be helpful.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38
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Sam Vara
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by Sam Vara »

This might help:
a householder knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .nara.html

My advice is that there are right times and wrong times for material generosity, and having lots of debt is probably a wrong time. It increases the likelihood of giving resentfully. Resolve to give in some of those other ways - with your time, or in ways that don't increase your debt. Having a debt is undesirable.
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pitakele
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by pitakele »

A basic premise of Dhamma practice is to undo dukkha. As a friend once remarked, more wisdom equates to less suffering. If, in the process of helping others, we create suffering for ourselves, then this is not the path, nor is it wisdom.

As you say there are many ways to peform generosity. Wisdom is knowing our limitations and giving according to our means. As Buddha says in Dhp. 224, 'when asked, even giving a little, is condition to go into the presence of devas [up to the individual whether this is understood literally or figuratively]. To cultivate generosity whenever possible is very important, but it is our mind state & intention which is primary.

Attadatthaṃ paratthena, bahunāpi na hāpaye.
attadatthamabhiññāya, sadatthapasuto siyā. Dhp. 166

One should not greatly neglect one's welfare for the sake of another. Knowing what is truly beneficial for oneself, one should be intent on that.
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
santa100
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by santa100 »

Also keep in mind the other grounds for meritorious activity:
Iti 3.11 wrote:This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three grounds for meritorious activity. Which three? The ground for meritorious activity made of giving, the ground for meritorious activity made of virtue, and the ground for meritorious activity made of development [meditation]. These are the three grounds for meritorious activity."
SarathW
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by SarathW »

Dhamma Dana is the highest gift.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot »

TamHanhHi wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:32 pm I know generosity comes in many forms (time, metta, sharing the dhamma, etc.)
Yes. Give whatever you can, here.
TamHanhHi wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:32 pm but when it comes to material generosity—what's the line between stinginess and saving money to pay off your debt?
The purpose of generosity is to make the mind free. However, debt does not make the mind free. Therefore, my advice is it is best to work on what makes you free, which is reducing debt. Monks, for example, generally do not have material things to share; apart from excess alms food. :smile:
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dylanj
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by dylanj »

The kammic consequence of generosity & giving is wealth.

No one has ever nor will ever become poor from giving.

If you have debt you should give more. Even if you have just $100 you could give it all away & your debt will not be a bigger burden as a result, wealth will come to you. Through generosity your wealth will increase & you will be able to pay your debt while continuing to give & develop relinquishment.

Causality is not materialist, it is ethical. Many Buddhists fail to break out of materialism.

You should have faith that you could literally give away everything you have, all of your possessions, & the result will only be an increase of wealth, not a decrease.

anāthapiṇḍika gave away his entire fortune & sure enough he developed a whole new fortune all in one lifetime.

I have about $20,000 of debt. I give a couple hundred dollars in charity each month. Whenever anyone asks me for money I give it to them. I help support a poor Burmese friend of mine. I recently paid for the school fees of a man from Uganda who messaged me asking for money on facebook. I donated $50 to pariyatti yesterday. Overall my wealth & income is increasing. Still I could & should do more.

The thought "I do not have enough to give" is stinginess. It is not a rational conclusion based on how poverty & wealth actually manifest in the world. They are results of kamma. You will become rich if you're generous. You will become poor if you're miserly. The moment you hesitate to relinquish your wealth is the moment you should throw it all at those who deserve it. This is a radical mode of causality extremely different than what the world generally believes in but it's what the Buddha taught & you would do well to have faith in it.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:58 am Dhamma Dana is the highest gift.
:goodpost:

the gift given has more merit depending on the thought behind giving it, with 'giving is an ornament of the mind, a support for the mind' being the highest
giving is also amplified by the purity of the recipient.
saving a part of your money is what the buddha recommends
and also paying off your debt, there's not a ranking
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:49 am The kammic consequence of generosity & giving is wealth.

No one has ever nor will ever become poor from giving.

Causality is not materialist, it is ethical. Many Buddhists fail to break out of materialism.
Its sounds like this above post is not a break out of materialism because "wealth" is not necessarily material as this post appears to be saying.
Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of wealth. What five? The wealth of faith, the wealth of virtuous behavior, the wealth of learning, the wealth of generosity, and the wealth of wisdom.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an5.47
In the same way, the brahmins have prescribed these four kinds of wealth without the consent of these ascetics and brahmins.

I declare that a person’s own wealth is the noble transcendent dhammaṃ .

Ariyaṃ kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, lokuttaraṃ dhammaṃ purisassa sandhanaṃ paññapemi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn96/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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TamHanhHi
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TamHanhHi »

Thank you everyone for your responses. It’s given me faith to work on paying off my debt and to give in whatever way I can :namaste:
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38
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dylanj
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by dylanj »

'''Whatever there may be in our family that can be given away, all that we will share unreservedly with the virtuous ones who are of good character.' It is in such a way that you should train yourselves. "
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by dylanj »

TamHanhHi wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 pm Thank you everyone for your responses. It’s given me faith to work on paying off my debt and to give in whatever way I can :namaste:
:thumbsup:
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:08 am
dylanj wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:49 am The kammic consequence of generosity & giving is wealth.

No one has ever nor will ever become poor from giving.

Causality is not materialist, it is ethical. Many Buddhists fail to break out of materialism.
Its sounds like this above post is not a break out of materialism because "wealth" is not necessarily material as this post appears to be saying.
Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of wealth. What five? The wealth of faith, the wealth of virtuous behavior, the wealth of learning, the wealth of generosity, and the wealth of wisdom.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an5.47
In the same way, the brahmins have prescribed these four kinds of wealth without the consent of these ascetics and brahmins.

I declare that a person’s own wealth is the noble transcendent dhammaṃ .

Ariyaṃ kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, lokuttaraṃ dhammaṃ purisassa sandhanaṃ paññapemi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn96/en/sujato

In regards to kamma, it arguably is talking about material wealth
"But here some woman or man is a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmans. Due to having performed and completed such kamma, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is rich wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to riches, that is to say, to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmans
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... nymo.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 »

TamHanhHi wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 pm Thank you everyone for your responses. It’s given me faith to work on paying off my debt and to give in whatever way I can :namaste:
Dont get discouraged. The Buddha gave away his in own eyes in a past life without ever worrying about the repercussions. to truly develop the perfection of dana one must give trusting in its benefits. dont be stupid about it, but give freely and with pure intentions the way Anathapindika, Visakha and Prince Vessantara did. Even John D Rockefeller, regularly donated 10% of his income to his church (who you give to doesn't matter, giving to other religions is totally fine as well) and still ended up the richest person in recorded history. A few years ago, I myself was in tons of debt but still practiced my dana regularly. During the debt period a Mahayana Buddhist friend of mine who operated a temple was raising money to buy a new building to expand his temple to. I hesitated slightly since i still had to pay off debt that was accumulating interest, but I ended up deciding to pour thousands of dollars into his fundraiser over the course of several weeks to help him and his congregation raise the money in time.

Today, not only am i totally debt free, that decision was one of the best decisions i have ever made. the extra several weeks of debt repayment i had to make could not even compare to the joy i felt when he finally raised enough money to expand and i got to see all the good work he did as a result.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Dana and debt

Post by TRobinson465 »

dylanj wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:49 am
No one has ever nor will ever become poor from giving.

Interestingly enough, monks who praise such giving are sometimes attacked as "greedy" and are accused of causing financial ruin to people and thier families on exactly no evidence. Despite the fact that people said the same of the Buddha in his time. But Dylan is 100% correct. While it seems almost counter intuitive, this is very much the case. People who go around saying that you can never be rich or financially stable if you give too much don't understand the true nature of reality. Nobody has ever become poor from giving too much, at least not in the past 91 aeons.
"Yes, headman, the Tathagata in many ways praises kindness, protection, & sympathy for families."

"Then why, venerable sir, is the Blessed One, together with a large community of monks, wandering on tour around Nalanda in the midst of famine, a time of scarcity, when the crops are white with blight and turned to straw? The Blessed One is practicing for the ruin of families. The Blessed One is practicing for the demise of families. The Blessed One is practicing for the downfall of families."

"Headman, recollecting back over 91 aeons, I do not know any family to have been brought to downfall through the giving of cooked alms. On the contrary: Whatever families are rich — with much wealth, many possessions, a great deal of money, a great many accoutrements of wealth, a great many commodities — all have become so from giving, from truth, from restraint.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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