Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Tue May 29, 2018 7:00 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm
ok, you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
and did i tell this person not to masturbate, no

it can be harder to maintain practice as a householder when you are not "quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind"
Understood. But when I hear someone say "celibacy", presumably in the context of the Dhamma and Discipline, it usually means abstaining from any sexual activity whatsoever. Monks aren't "allowed" to masturbate and I believe you will get expelled if you do it too many times (unless you don't confess it which is even worse).

If you want to use the dictionary definition of celibacy that is fine but you sure didn't lead on that that is what you meant. You should've just said, "Stay single and just masturbate" if that is what you meant. (Problem is, masturbation and porn go hand in hand and there is really no good definition of celibacy that includes such a combination. Such a lifestyle would severely deepen one's lust all the same as it would were they with a flesh and blood person fulfilling their sexual needs (perhaps even more so). Surely not good for development.)

So you would just have to be a bit more specific next time especially when offering it as break up advice.

I feel like I am harping on it now. I don't mean to be. I just didn't understand at first but now I do.

perkele
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by perkele » Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm

Not really wanting to harp on this much, but as a word of advice: I think dictionary.com should not be accepted as an authority on the definition of English words. They are often very inaccurate, discard established conventional meanings in favour of dumbed-down retard newspeak.

I'd rather recommend something like dictionary.cambridge.org, or maybe a dusty old paper dictionary.
dictionary.cambridge.org wrote:celibate adjective
uk ​ /ˈsel.ə.bət/ us ​ /ˈsel.ə.bət/

not having sexual activity, especially because you have made a religious promise not to
Sexual activity includes masturbation.

Of course, celibacy is a western word. But according to my understanding, it is a good and faithful translation, in at least this context, for the Pali word brahmacariya.

I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm

perkele wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm
I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.
easily justifiable
-less entaglement
-does not involve another person
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
-Tathagata adviced not seeing women
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
For a serious monk it is a serious offense.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
For a serious monk it is a serious offense.
i said the lesser offense of the two, where sexual intercourse is a defeat meaning permanent separation from the order and masturbation is the lesser offense of the two being a temporary separation.

So as Mr Perkele should see the natural assumption is that masturbation is more healthy than sexual intercourse and the lesser impediment to the development.

perkele
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by perkele » Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
perkele wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm
I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.
easily justifiable
-less entaglement
-does not involve another person
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
-Tathagata adviced not seeing women
Okay, some partially valid points maybe, but only partial IMO:

1 & 2: I specified "faithful" relationship. For a layperson who has no aspirations to monkhood this can be a positive, kusala, thing. Not something to be avoided at all cost.
3. Okay, that's valid. But of course it is still a breach of brahmacariya. I wanted to make clear that including habitual masturbation in one's lifestyle is not a mode of brahmacariya.
4. This applies to monks who have changed into a different mode of life (see AN 10.48, as quoted by DooDoot previously).

But I really did not want to get involved in much discussion here.
So this is all I had to say. I have nothing more to discuss.

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Mr Man
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 29, 2018 9:35 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
For a serious monk it is a serious offense.
i said the lesser offense of the two, where sexual intercourse is a defeat meaning permanent separation from the order and masturbation is the lesser offense of the two being a temporary separation.

So as Mr Perkele should see the natural assumption is that masturbation is more healthy than sexual intercourse and the lesser impediment to the development.
Yes. But as you are a prospective Bhikkhu I thought it was worth mentioning that it is still a serious offense.

The Sanghakamma involved can be rather inconvenient.

:smile:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 9:36 pm

perkele wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
perkele wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm
I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.
easily justifiable
-less entaglement
-does not involve another person
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
-Tathagata adviced not seeing women
Okay, some partially valid points maybe, but only partial IMO:

1 & 2: I specified "faithful" relationship. For a layperson who has no aspirations to monkhood this can be a positive, kusala, thing. Not something to be avoided at all cost.
3. Okay, that's valid. But of course it is still a breach of brahmacariya. I wanted to make clear that including habitual masturbation in one's lifestyle is not a mode of brahmacariya.
4. This applies to monks who have changed into a different mode of life (see AN 10.48, as quoted by DooDoot previously).

But I really did not want to get involved in much discussion here.
So this is all I had to say. I have nothing more to discuss.
@4 is invalid, you can not say that what is good for a monk is not ultimately good for a lay person because of some arbitrary reasoning, it does not work like that, clearly if the goal is the highest goal it is the same the path and practice is essentially the same.
@2
Owing to this excessive preoccupation with each other, passion was aroused, and their bodies burnt with lust. And later, because of this burning, they indulged in sexual activity.835 But those who saw them indulging threw dust, ashes or [89] cow-dung at them, crying: “Die, you filthy beast! How can one being do such things to another!
I mean if your goal is to have a family and be a householder that would be about the only way you can justify sex being better than masturbation.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue May 29, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm


For a serious monk it is a serious offense.
i said the lesser offense of the two, where sexual intercourse is a defeat meaning permanent separation from the order and masturbation is the lesser offense of the two being a temporary separation.

So as Mr Perkele should see the natural assumption is that masturbation is more healthy than sexual intercourse and the lesser impediment to the development.
Yes. But as you are a prospective Bhikkhu I thought it was worth mentioning that it is still a serious offense.

The Sanghakamma involved can be rather inconvenient.

:smile:
Don't worry i would not ordain if i thought not masturbating would be a problem.

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Mr Man
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 29, 2018 9:52 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 pm


i said the lesser offense of the two, where sexual intercourse is a defeat meaning permanent separation from the order and masturbation is the lesser offense of the two being a temporary separation.

So as Mr Perkele should see the natural assumption is that masturbation is more healthy than sexual intercourse and the lesser impediment to the development.
Yes. But as you are a prospective Bhikkhu I thought it was worth mentioning that it is still a serious offense.

The Sanghakamma involved can be rather inconvenient.

:smile:
Don't worry i would not ordain if i thought not masturbating would be a problem.
:thumbsup:

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm
easily justifiable
-less entaglement
-does not involve another person
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
-Tathagata adviced not seeing women
For a layman or laywoman to handle there physical urges as a matter of emotional balance without porn, yeah, it is probably "better" than a relationship with intercourse; but if we are talking about doing so with porn, it is a whole different story. A serious porn habit is cultivating the same levels of lust as one would be in a healthy relationship and in some cases a porn habit is more severe based on ease of availability and the ability to tailor to one's preferences. Whereas, when in a relationship, one has to be patient and respectful of each other's needs and desires and can't "get it" whenever they please.

All I'm saying is that if we are talking about a simple "passing of fluids" that is one thing, and I fully, 100% agree that it is better than intercourse, but if you are talking about doing so with porn, do not even try compare the two. You shouldn't even try to sell that vacuum cleaner to yourself because it is a nasty case of self-deception.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 30, 2018 5:12 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:36 pm
4. This applies to monks who have changed into a different mode of life (see AN 10.48, as quoted by DooDoot previously).

@4 is invalid, you can not say that what is good for a monk is not ultimately good for a lay person because of some arbitrary reasoning, it does not work like that, clearly if the goal is the highest goal it is the same the path and practice is essentially the same.
I trust a decent monastic training will quickly remove the above wrong view (unless the monastic training is not decent &, instead, a You Tube recruitment cult). In my opinion, the above view is born (jayati) from sexual lust and is a common danger & pitfall of the celibate life because such a wrong view is born (jayati) from the lust to dominate & control others. Its basically "mental or priestly sex". I recall there are a number of suttas about the improperness of monks getting too close to laypeople.

The path of a householder appears to not be the same, according to DN 31:
The ascetics and brahmans thus ministered to as the Zenith by a householder show their compassion towards him in six ways:

(i) they restrain him from evil,
(ii) they persuade him to do good,
(iii) they love him with a kind heart,
(iv) they make him hear what he has not heard,
(v) they clarify what he has already heard,
(vi) they point out the path to a heavenly state.

DN 31
It appears most people cannot be celibate & cannot live in solitude based on natural genetic design. To quote the same sutta (which is the basis of monastic training & which you appeared to reject) about what the life of a monk truly is:
9. "'Do I take delight in solitude?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
Also, quoting the same sutta, it clearly says there are "superhuman" faculties expected of a monk therefore obviously these faculties are not expected of the ordinary human:
10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties :meditate: ? Have I gained that higher wisdom :sage: so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast :weep: ?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
:buddha1:
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:36 pm
Owing to this excessive preoccupation with each other, passion was aroused, and their bodies burnt with lust. And later, because of this burning, they indulged in sexual activity.835 But those who saw them indulging threw dust, ashes or cow-dung at them, crying: “Die, you filthy beast! How can one being do such things to another!
The above is regarded by most learned Buddhists as mere mythology but I can empathize with how you identify with it:
Once the Lord was staying at Savatthi, at the mansion of Migara's mother in the East Park. And at that time Vasettha and Bharadvaja were living among the monks, hoping to become monks themselves.
Regardless, it seems to contradict the Dhamma because the Dhamma does not say beings were originally pure or beings came to this earth from the heavens. The Dhamma says the world is created from ignorance & craving (SN 22.44; AN 4.45).

The "Long" Discourses (Pali digha = "long") consists of 34 suttas, including the longest ones in the Canon. The subject matter of these suttas ranges widely, from colorful folkloric accounts of the beings inhabiting the deva worlds (DN 20) to down-to-earth practical meditation instructions (DN 22), and everything in between. Recent scholarship suggests that a distinguishing trait of the Digha Nikaya may be that it was "intended for the purpose of propaganda, to attract converts to the new religion."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 7:25 am

SDC wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:14 am
All I'm saying is that if we are talking about a simple "passing of fluids" that is one thing, and I fully, 100% agree that it is better than intercourse, but if you are talking about doing so with porn, do not even try compare the two. You shouldn't even try to sell that vacuum cleaner to yourself because it is a nasty case of self-deception.
sutta evidence or demonstrate your reasoning at least
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed May 30, 2018 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Dinsdale » Wed May 30, 2018 8:37 am

TLCD96 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:48 pm
Wondering if anyone has advice or perspectives or experiences to share.
I have found that when relationships break down it's rather like a bereavement - it's like we have to go through a mourning process.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Sam Vara
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Re: Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 30, 2018 10:51 am

Lots of off-topic posts removed here. There might have been some useful quotes and some truth inextricably mixed up with the rest, but it mainly consisted of bickering and personal points-scoring which referenced the Dhamma for rhetorical effect.

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