Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw »

Thank you guys.
DooDoot wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm These two newbies are funny to me; how they are newbies to Buddhism but develop such dogmatic ideas about things they have not experienced.
64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.

65. Though only for a moment a discerning person associates with a wise man, quickly he comprehends the Truth, just as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup.
DooDoot wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm To ordain is to also be subject to public scrutiny (MN 95). We will follow with interest. Are you going to be a Facebook, Youtube & Twitter monk both before & as soon as you ordain? Will you make videos dressed in white with Yuttadhammo? :mrgreen:
It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon May 28, 2018 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm ....
To ordain is to also be subject to public scrutiny (MN 95). We will follow with interest. Are you going to be a Facebook, Youtube & Twitter monk both before & as soon as you ordain? Will you make videos dressed in white with Yuttadhammo? :mrgreen:
It is one thing to share "tips for new players" that might help them bypass potential pitfalls that lie ahead.

It is another thing altogether to pre-emptively relish in the prospect of their potential failure, mocking them as they try.

Please remember that in the Dhamma, altruistic joy (mudita) is superior to shameful joy / schadenfreude (which is a form of dosa).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Garrib
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Garrib »

rightviewftw wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm
It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
Hopefully you will still check in once and while once you finally take the plunge. All the best! :anjali:
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DooDoot
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Re: Dealing with break ups

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SDC wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 9:13 pmWell perhaps someone with as many years and as much knowledge as you have should try encouragement and guidance with an arm around the shoulder rather than just a kick in the ass and/or face. Give it a try. You might actually enjoy it.
Thanks SDC. I was providing guidance from my many years of knowledge. One of the first things taught to monks is the life of a monk is different to a life of a layperson therefore monks ideally should avoid imputing their aspirations & code of conduct onto laypeople. My understanding is ordination is not an evangelical recruitment drive.
'I am now changed into a different mode of life (from that of a layman).' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

AN 10.48 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
:candle:
retrofuturist wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:01 pmIt is one thing to share "tips for new players" that might help them bypass potential pitfalls that lie ahead.It is another thing altogether to pre-emptively relish in the prospect of their potential failure, mocking them as they try.
Thanks Paul. My post was made merely from the view of cause & effect. Regards.
For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will... 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

AN 11.2 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Dhammarakkhito wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm potaliya and magandiya suttas. sensual pleasures are inconstant and stressful whether you are an upasaka or a bhikkhu
The suttas appear to teach when impermanence (anicca) and unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) are realised, dispassion (viraga) occurs. Therefore, how can the dispassionate mind masturbate?
O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free.

SN 22.59 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pmTrust me in that if i could, id be ordained, not rotting away here. It is causing me a lot of stress not being able to train in a supportive enviroment and having to endure the lay-state as it is. There is 1 monastery in my country and they required me to allign myself, i am fixed in view i cannot do... It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
OK. Good luck then. May the training bring you benefits. :anjali:
rightviewftw wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.

65. Though only for a moment a discerning person associates with a wise man, quickly he comprehends the Truth, just as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup.
Indeed. The wise man posted below and the wise student lends ear to the Dhamma of the Lord Buddha. Therefore, if you do become a bhikkhu and if one day you are allowed to teach laypeople, I suggest to answer as I have done below, from the Lord Buddha's lips.
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 05, 2018 3:35 am The Buddha taught a successful relationship will happen when two people share four same qualities. Refer to the Samajivina Sutta and also AN 4.53 and AN 4.54 for guidance. My impression is both of you were not compatible with each other. Relationship is more than just indulgent feelings but two people sharing the same long term goals, vision & morality, as the Buddha taught in the Samajivina Sutta.
:anjali: :focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by budo »

Even if they ordained and failed and ordained again and failed again 1000 times again and again, it is still better than someone who criticizes others for wanting to ordain.

Even if I meditated for 20 years 24 hours a day as a lay person and have memorized every sutta, I would still respect a person who has never heard of Buddhism and deciding to ordain the day they found out about Buddhism and view them as greater than me.

You gain absolutely no benefit for discouraging others from being better people and improving themselves.
Last edited by budo on Tue May 29, 2018 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by DooDoot »

I think the discussion here is about suggesting to other people to ordain when the other people have not expressed any interest in ordaining. For example, when my neighbour comes to me crying in tears saying their husband or wife has left them, I, as a Buddhist, don't suggest to them to ordain.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

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Dhammarakkhito wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm ok i'm not really offended, if masturbation counts then i am not celibate but if it doesn't then i am and have been for maybe a couple years. potaliya and magandiya suttas. sensual pleasures are inconstant and stressful whether you are an upasaka or a bhikkhu
dhammika sutta explicitly instructs us to maintain celibacy, if possible, so you will have to take it up with the dhamma rather than me
bearing in mind the original post, this is about depending on someone else for one's happiness, which is also not instructed of us
Masturbation counts as a violation of celibacy and most definitely a sensual act. Your tone hardly shows any recognition of the realities associated with that level of practice.

I really didn't mean for it be so personal despite my earlier comments about ordination. I just believe advice is best when comes from a place of experience. Doesn't mean you shouldn't offer things beyond your level of experience, but I was merely suggesting to use caution when it is something that you may not be doing yourself. It helps others put what you say into context.

Honestly just a suggestion especially if you want your advice to land effectively.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw »

"Household life is crowded, a realm of dust, while going forth is the open air. It is not easy, while living in a home, to lead the holy life utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell. "
‘As I understand the Lord’s words about the stench, these things are not easy to overcome if one lives the household life. I will therefore go forth from the household life into the homeless state.’
pācittiya #68
- Not to affirm that things such as sexual pleasures are not an obstacle to the development of ariyā stage or to jhāna realisations, nor to rebirth in the deva world, when the Buddha explains that these things are precisely an obstacle to those, and not to maintain erroneous views.
Verse 307.

Many who wear the yellow robe
are unrestrained in evil things,
these evil ones by evil deeds,
in hell do they arise.
Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leadingthe holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more,'
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

ok, you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
and did i tell this person not to masturbate, no

it can be harder to maintain practice as a householder when you are not "quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind"
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

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Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
i think one will undergo rehabilitation (mānatta) and get expelled if unable to give it up during probation (parivāsa)
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

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Dhammarakkhito wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm ok, you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
and did i tell this person not to masturbate, no

it can be harder to maintain practice as a householder when you are not "quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind"
Understood. But when I hear someone say "celibacy", presumably in the context of the Dhamma and Discipline, it usually means abstaining from any sexual activity whatsoever. Monks aren't "allowed" to masturbate and I believe you will get expelled if you do it too many times (unless you don't confess it which is even worse).

If you want to use the dictionary definition of celibacy that is fine but you sure didn't lead on that that is what you meant. You should've just said, "Stay single and just masturbate" if that is what you meant. (Problem is, masturbation and porn go hand in hand and there is really no good definition of celibacy that includes such a combination. Such a lifestyle would severely deepen one's lust all the same as it would were they with a flesh and blood person fulfilling their sexual needs (perhaps even more so). Surely not good for development.)

So you would just have to be a bit more specific next time especially when offering it as break up advice.

I feel like I am harping on it now. I don't mean to be. I just didn't understand at first but now I do.
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by perkele »

Not really wanting to harp on this much, but as a word of advice: I think dictionary.com should not be accepted as an authority on the definition of English words. They are often very inaccurate, discard established conventional meanings in favour of dumbed-down retard newspeak.

I'd rather recommend something like dictionary.cambridge.org, or maybe a dusty old paper dictionary.
dictionary.cambridge.org wrote:celibate adjective
uk ​ /ˈsel.ə.bət/ us ​ /ˈsel.ə.bət/

not having sexual activity, especially because you have made a religious promise not to
Sexual activity includes masturbation.

Of course, celibacy is a western word. But according to my understanding, it is a good and faithful translation, in at least this context, for the Pali word brahmacariya.

I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

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perkele wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 9:04 pm I don't think it is a justifiable buddhist position to say that avoiding sexual relations with others, but habitually masturbating instead, is better than to engage in faithful sexual relations. And certainly it is not a mode of brahmacariya.
easily justifiable
-less entaglement
-does not involve another person
-for a monk it is the lesser offense
-Tathagata adviced not seeing women
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Mr Man
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Mr Man »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm -for a monk it is the lesser offense
For a serious monk it is a serious offense.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw »

Mr Man wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm
rightviewftw wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 9:14 pm -for a monk it is the lesser offense
For a serious monk it is a serious offense.
i said the lesser offense of the two, where sexual intercourse is a defeat meaning permanent separation from the order and masturbation is the lesser offense of the two being a temporary separation.

So as Mr Perkele should see the natural assumption is that masturbation is more healthy than sexual intercourse and the lesser impediment to the development.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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