Off-topic musings on: Dealing with break ups

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 8:53 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:24 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:13 pm
I found it quite offensive the way you brought it up in this thread again, saying basically that i have no idea what i am talking about and have no right to advocate monasticism being neither ordained nor disrobed. I dismissed your initial comment because it is litterally a repeat question.

Not being able to ordain is also something that causes me a lot of grief, so it is just a cheap blow to use it against me in this fashion as i see it.
I never said you had no idea what you were talking about - like you said, it is impossible for me to know what your level of experience is. What I am saying is, that if you are going to give that advice, it would be good if you did have the experience with the things you are encouraging others to pursue.

I am very sorry about your issues with ordaining, I did not bring this up again to cause you grief. I really do mean that.
The more educated advice is better i agree.

I fantasize about ordination like little girls would fantasize about their wedding, about the only thing i really want in life. I sometimes want to buy a nice car so that i can renounce it as well when i ordain. Luckily it seems like i will be able to ordain in not so distant future and good things are worth waiting for they say.

I am glad you did not mean to cause grief.
I am also sorry i got angry and offended.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 9:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm
SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:43 pm
I find it interesting that you are both pushing a monastic position yet neither of you is ordained (or ever have been).
These two newbies are funny to me; how they are newbies to Buddhism but develop such dogmatic ideas about things they have not experienced. Yesterday one of them posted a link and I won't disclose publicly what the link was but obviously they would not last very long in a monastic environment.
Well perhaps someone with as many years and as much knowledge as you have should try encouragement and guidance with an arm around the shoulder rather than just a kick in the ass and/or face. Give it a try. You might actually enjoy it.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Mon May 28, 2018 9:14 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:53 pm
I fantasize about ordination like little girls would fantasize about their wedding, about the only thing i really want in life. I sometimes want to buy a nice car so that i can renounce it as well when i ordain. Luckily it seems like i will be able to ordain in not so distant future and good things are worth waiting for they say.

I am glad you did not mean to cause grief.
I am also sorry i got angry and offended.
:thumbsup:

Good to hear it's getting closer.

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Mr Man
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Mr Man » Mon May 28, 2018 9:18 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:53 pm


I fantasize about ordination like little girls would fantasize about their wedding, about the only thing i really want in life. I sometimes want to buy a nice car so that i can renounce it as well when i ordain. Luckily it seems like i will be able to ordain in not so distant future and good things are worth waiting for they say.
May you achieve your fantasy. May you be a field of merit and true blessing to the world.
:anjali:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 pm
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:03 pm
sdc, that is silly
quoting dn 16 is monastifying the lay community?
really?
i thought i talked about why i dont ordain, but im taking care of my mom. the suttas do say to ordain, and they do recommend celibacy for householders. why encourage the bare minimum, or why deride me for encouraging more?
I did not know about your mom and I apologize for sounding so critical.

I am not trying encourage a bare minimum, but I think it is most responsible to advise others from understood positions of experience. So if you are an experienced celibate lay disciple who is a follower of the 8 precepts then I guess you are qualified. If you aren't, obviously you can still encourage more but keep in mind that not every lay person is the same, and blanket advice about celibacy is not always going to help the reader. A little finesse goes a long way to bringing someone away from sensuality and considering how much you point the way to a monastic life, I thought you should keep it in mind if you want people to heed your words. I meant no offense.
ok i'm not really offended, if masturbation counts then i am not celibate but if it doesn't then i am and have been for maybe a couple years. potaliya and magandiya suttas. sensual pleasures are inconstant and stressful whether you are an upasaka or a bhikkhu
dhammika sutta explicitly instructs us to maintain celibacy, if possible, so you will have to take it up with the dhamma rather than me
bearing in mind the original post, this is about depending on someone else for one's happiness, which is also not instructed of us
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm

Thank you guys.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm
These two newbies are funny to me; how they are newbies to Buddhism but develop such dogmatic ideas about things they have not experienced.
64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.

65. Though only for a moment a discerning person associates with a wise man, quickly he comprehends the Truth, just as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm
To ordain is to also be subject to public scrutiny (MN 95). We will follow with interest. Are you going to be a Facebook, Youtube & Twitter monk both before & as soon as you ordain? Will you make videos dressed in white with Yuttadhammo? :mrgreen:
It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon May 28, 2018 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 28, 2018 10:01 pm

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:48 pm
....
To ordain is to also be subject to public scrutiny (MN 95). We will follow with interest. Are you going to be a Facebook, Youtube & Twitter monk both before & as soon as you ordain? Will you make videos dressed in white with Yuttadhammo? :mrgreen:
It is one thing to share "tips for new players" that might help them bypass potential pitfalls that lie ahead.

It is another thing altogether to pre-emptively relish in the prospect of their potential failure, mocking them as they try.

Please remember that in the Dhamma, altruistic joy (mudita) is superior to shameful joy / schadenfreude (which is a form of dosa).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Garrib
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Garrib » Tue May 29, 2018 12:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm

It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
Hopefully you will still check in once and while once you finally take the plunge. All the best! :anjali:

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 29, 2018 3:29 am

SDC wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:13 pm
Well perhaps someone with as many years and as much knowledge as you have should try encouragement and guidance with an arm around the shoulder rather than just a kick in the ass and/or face. Give it a try. You might actually enjoy it.
Thanks SDC. I was providing guidance from my many years of knowledge. One of the first things taught to monks is the life of a monk is different to a life of a layperson therefore monks ideally should avoid imputing their aspirations & code of conduct onto laypeople. My understanding is ordination is not an evangelical recruitment drive.
'I am now changed into a different mode of life (from that of a layman).' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

AN 10.48 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
:candle:
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:01 pm
It is one thing to share "tips for new players" that might help them bypass potential pitfalls that lie ahead.It is another thing altogether to pre-emptively relish in the prospect of their potential failure, mocking them as they try.
Thanks Paul. My post was made merely from the view of cause & effect. Regards.
For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will... 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

AN 11.2 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm
potaliya and magandiya suttas. sensual pleasures are inconstant and stressful whether you are an upasaka or a bhikkhu
The suttas appear to teach when impermanence (anicca) and unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) are realised, dispassion (viraga) occurs. Therefore, how can the dispassionate mind masturbate?
O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free.

SN 22.59 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm
Trust me in that if i could, id be ordained, not rotting away here. It is causing me a lot of stress not being able to train in a supportive enviroment and having to endure the lay-state as it is. There is 1 monastery in my country and they required me to allign myself, i am fixed in view i cannot do... It is truly comforting to know how little you know about my plans, where i will be ordaining and who my preceptor will be.
OK. Good luck then. May the training bring you benefits. :anjali:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm
64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.

65. Though only for a moment a discerning person associates with a wise man, quickly he comprehends the Truth, just as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup.
Indeed. The wise man posted below and the wise student lends ear to the Dhamma of the Lord Buddha. Therefore, if you do become a bhikkhu and if one day you are allowed to teach laypeople, I suggest to answer as I have done below, from the Lord Buddha's lips.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:35 am
The Buddha taught a successful relationship will happen when two people share four same qualities. Refer to the Samajivina Sutta and also AN 4.53 and AN 4.54 for guidance. My impression is both of you were not compatible with each other. Relationship is more than just indulgent feelings but two people sharing the same long term goals, vision & morality, as the Buddha taught in the Samajivina Sutta.
:anjali: :focus:

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by budo » Tue May 29, 2018 4:08 am

Even if they ordained and failed and ordained again and failed again 1000 times again and again, it is still better than someone who criticizes others for wanting to ordain.

Even if I meditated for 20 years 24 hours a day as a lay person and have memorized every sutta, I would still respect a person who has never heard of Buddhism and deciding to ordain the day they found out about Buddhism and view them as greater than me.

You gain absolutely no benefit for discouraging others from being better people and improving themselves.
Last edited by budo on Tue May 29, 2018 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 29, 2018 4:18 am

I think the discussion here is about suggesting to other people to ordain when the other people have not expressed any interest in ordaining. For example, when my neighbour comes to me crying in tears saying their husband or wife has left them, I, as a Buddhist, don't suggest to them to ordain.

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SDC
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by SDC » Tue May 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm
ok i'm not really offended, if masturbation counts then i am not celibate but if it doesn't then i am and have been for maybe a couple years. potaliya and magandiya suttas. sensual pleasures are inconstant and stressful whether you are an upasaka or a bhikkhu
dhammika sutta explicitly instructs us to maintain celibacy, if possible, so you will have to take it up with the dhamma rather than me
bearing in mind the original post, this is about depending on someone else for one's happiness, which is also not instructed of us
Masturbation counts as a violation of celibacy and most definitely a sensual act. Your tone hardly shows any recognition of the realities associated with that level of practice.

I really didn't mean for it be so personal despite my earlier comments about ordination. I just believe advice is best when comes from a place of experience. Doesn't mean you shouldn't offer things beyond your level of experience, but I was merely suggesting to use caution when it is something that you may not be doing yourself. It helps others put what you say into context.

Honestly just a suggestion especially if you want your advice to land effectively.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 3:28 pm

"Household life is crowded, a realm of dust, while going forth is the open air. It is not easy, while living in a home, to lead the holy life utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell. "
‘As I understand the Lord’s words about the stench, these things are not easy to overcome if one lives the household life. I will therefore go forth from the household life into the homeless state.’
pācittiya #68
- Not to affirm that things such as sexual pleasures are not an obstacle to the development of ariyā stage or to jhāna realisations, nor to rebirth in the deva world, when the Buddha explains that these things are precisely an obstacle to those, and not to maintain erroneous views.
Verse 307.

Many who wear the yellow robe
are unrestrained in evil things,
these evil ones by evil deeds,
in hell do they arise.
Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leadingthe holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more,'

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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm

ok, you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
and did i tell this person not to masturbate, no

it can be harder to maintain practice as a householder when you are not "quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind"
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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rightviewftw
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Re: Dealing with break ups

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 29, 2018 5:28 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:18 pm
you dont get expelled from the order for masturbating
i think one will undergo rehabilitation (mānatta) and get expelled if unable to give it up during probation (parivāsa)

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